[Muck]

Originally Posted by cincibuck

At a time when the Soviet Union and China have nothing in the air to challenge the F-15, let alone the F-22,

Take a look at the results of the Cope India training with India (duh) a few years back.

The entire F-15 fleet (minus the strike eagles) was grounded earlier this year due to fears over structural problems (due to a catastrophic failure where an Eagle literally broke in half during flight). They're 30+ years old and will be heading past their designed life span in the near future.

And as I discovered during a tour of the Air Force Museum restoration hanger, this aircraft was outperformed in the trials leading up to the awarding of the contract!

The YF-23 was marginally faster & stealthier than the YF-22. The YF-22 was more agile, easier to maintain, had a higher ceiling for growth and was a lower risk from a production standpoint.

Six of one, half dozen of another...each plane has strengths and weaknesses vs other.

Originally Posted by t_BuckeyeScott

The soviets definitely have a jet to challenge the F 22: the new MIG 35. It's a serious plane. I was trying to find the website I was on months ago comparing the two, but I failed. The F22 and the MiG 35 definitely have slightly different purposes. The F22 would probably still win in an outright dog fight. But there are longer range stuff that the MiG 35 can do that the Raptor can't. Also the MiG 35 could definitely take the 15s 16s.

The 35 is an updated Mig-29, the airframe has grown quite a bit (kinda like the F/A-18 E/F frames are much larger than their F/A-18 C/D forebears).

Realistically a much better comparison to the Fulcrum "F" is the aforementioned Super Hornet. The F-22 is out of both of their leagues. In a BVR engagement the Raptor would splash the Mig without Ivan ever knowing he was there. If they get to the furball yes the Mig-35 will have some advantages over the F-22 (the Raptor currently lacks a helmet mounted site and the russian OBS missile performance is a better anyways) but the whole point is to kill the bad guy before you get to the merge.

Originally Posted by cincibuck

It's not a case of if the Raptor is excellent... it is. But what do we need now? We need troops on the ground.

The Army is increasing active duty strength by 65,000 and the 'Corps is growing by 20,000.

We need an updated A-10, we need more drones, we need low and slow and the Air Force gives us the Raptor, a plane so expensive it will swallow the AF's budget whole.

The AF is in the process of going from 3 active UAV squadrons to 15.

The Army & Marine Corps have hundreds of smaller battlefield sized UAVs.

The F-35 will be the replacement for all the strike aircraft in the inventory.

It's the same story on the Navy side. The Marine's harriers are well past their prime but the Navy is buying the sea version of the 22.

Navy procurement isn't directly related with USMC procurement.

The Corps is replacing both the Harrier and Hornets in their inventory with the F-35b which is the S/VTOL version of the JSF.

The Navy pulled out of the ATF program years ago. There will be no navalized F-22 or equivalent. Their procurement route is F/A-18 E/Fs to replace the aging F-14s and the F-35c to replace the older F/A-18 C/Ds.

Originally Posted by BrutusBobcat

Just hypothesizing, but we do have a few client/customer states out there flying F-15s. Maybe the F-22 was built to either A) remind them that we're still the top dog and can take their entire Air Force down in an afternoon, or B) have an upgrade path to sell to them in a few years once their F-15 fleet has aged.

Regarding B, the F-22 is banned from foreign military sales by Congress. Under the current law no one outside of the US will be able to fly them (Japan, Israel & Australia have expressed interest).

The aforementioned F-35 is the 800lb export guerilla with everyone and their mother qeueing up to buy them.

---The procurement system is certainly FUBAR in this country and I've been labeled an AF hater more than once in my life BUT the F-22 is not the end all, be all poster child for the problems in the system. The reality is that the AF does need a replacement for the F-15 and there is no realistic alternative to the F-22. Kill it and 20 years from now whatever the next program is will have similar issues but we won't have any F-15s in the air. Meanwhile PAK-FA (Russia's "answer" to the Raptor) is slated to be in production with the Russians/Indians by that time.

The problem crosses all of the services. Not only does the conversation cover "what exactly do we need when it comes to weapons systems" but it also goes into "why are the contracting companies so [censored]ed up".

The Comanche & the Crusader for the Army. DD (X), CG (X) & the LCS for the Navy (and that is not even close to covering the issues they've had with Naval aviation since the cancellation of the A-12 & deciding not to update the Tomcats). The Osprey & EFV for the USMC. The AF also has issues regarding the tanker & cargo fleet...