2005 vs. 2002

[bigtenbadboy]

I saw a similar thread on the Choklahma board and thought it would be fun to do the same thing comparing our 2005 projected starters vs. 2002. Oklahoma was comparing 2005 to 2000 when they won their last MNC. I'm not going to get into too much detail I'll just list the projected 2005 starters who I think would start over the 2002 starters.

Offense - Based on conventional 2 wide, 1 tight set

OL

1. Mangold
2. Sims
3. Insert name here (I think we have 3/5 over 2002)

TE - 2002 starter

QB - 4. Smith over Krenzel

RB - 2002 starter

FB 5. Schnitker/Johnson over 2002 Joe

WR 6. Holmes

Defense - based on 4-3

DL - 2002 across the board (ouch)

LB

1. Hawk
2. Carpenter

CB

3. Youbouty

Safety

4. Whitner/Salley over Nickey

P - 2002
PK - 2002

PR/KR - 2005 (Ginn, Holmes)

Analysis

The 2005 offense would start 6/11 starters over 2002. In this analysis I made the assumption that MoC was playing. Sans MoC I would take 2005 Pittman/Haw over 2002 Ross any day of the week. An argument could be made for Ginn over Jenkins but Jenkins was just too consistent and clutch a performer to dishonor what he did for the 2002 team.

The 2005 defense would start 4/11 starters over 2002. The glaring deficiency being the DL as our back 7 would probably start in 4/7 positions. An argument could be made for Pitcock over Peterson assuming Darrion Scott was playing at DE. I am trying to base this analysis off of past performance more than potential, so I will stick with 4/11 starters here. I am optimistic that the 2005 season will show I was being overly conservative here.

Overall our combined offense defense would start 10/22 positions. Our kicking and punting games look like they will be a notch or two below 2002. Our return game should be very explosive and a big plus over 2002.

Outside of our return game I really did not include the big X factor for offense and defense, Ted Ginn. His game breaking ability on either side of the ball and special teams gives the 2005 team a powerful weapon that can change games instantly that was not there in 2002.

Trying to stay on the conservative side the 2005 team looks like it may just be a notch below 2002, but if some of the unproven talent bears fruit in 2005 look out because this team has the potential to be equal to or even supperior to 2002 and that is the silver lining of this analysis.

Lots that could be said that I left out but thats what everyone else is for.

Go Bucks!

[Happygobuckeye]

Did you just bench Krenzel? Stopped reading after that.

[scott91575]

P/K a notch or two below. That's an understatement. The Ray Guy award winner and Nugent. Tough to beat that combo any year by any team.

[MililaniBuckeye]

Originally Posted by scott91575

P/K a notch or two below. That's an understatement. The Ray Guy award winner and Nugent. Tough to beat that combo any year by any team.

Andy Groom was the punter in 2002, and he didn't win the Ray Guy Award...B.J. Sander won it in 2003.

[AirForceBuck]

thought it would be fun to do the same thing comparing our 2005 projected starters vs. 2002. Oklahoma was comparing 2005 to 2000 when they won their last MNC. I'm not going to get into too much detail I'll just list the projected 2005 starters who I think would start over the 2002 starters.

Offense - Based on conventional 2 wide, 1 tight set

OL

1. Mangold
2. Sims
3. Insert name here (I think we have 3/5 over 2002)

TE - 2002 starter

QB - 4. Smith over Krenzel

RB - 2002 starter

FB 5. Schnitker/Johnson over 2002 Joe

WR 6. Holmes

Defense - based on 4-3

DL - 2002 across the board (ouch)

LB

1. Hawk
2. Carpenter

CB

3. Youbouty

Safety

4. Whitner/Salley over Nickey

P - 2002
PK - 2002

PR/KR - 2005 (Ginn, Holmes)

Analysis

The 2005 offense would start 6/11 starters over 2002. In this analysis I made the assumption that MoC was playing. Sans MoC I would take 2005 Pittman/Haw over 2002 Ross any day of the week. An argument could be made for Ginn over Jenkins but Jenkins was just too consistent and clutch a performer to dishonor what he did for the 2002 team.

The 2005 defense would start 4/11 starters over 2002. The glaring deficiency being the DL as our back 7 would probably start in 4/7 positions. An argument could be made for Pitcock over Peterson assuming Darrion Scott was playing at DE. I am trying to base this analysis off of past performance more than potential, so I will stick with 4/11 starters here. I am optimistic that the 2005 season will show I was being overly conservative here.

Overall our combined offense defense would start 10/22 positions. Our kicking and punting games look like they will be a notch or two below 2002. Our return game should be very explosive and a big plus over 2002.

Outside of our return game I really did not include the big X factor for offense and defense, Ted Ginn. His game breaking ability on either side of the ball and special teams gives the 2005 team a powerful weapon that can change games instantly that was not there in 2002.

Trying to stay on the conservative side the 2005 team looks like it may just be a notch below 2002, but if some of the unproven talent bears fruit in 2005 look out because this team has the potential to be equal to or even supperior to 2002 and that is the silver lining of this analysis.

Lots that could be said that I left out but thats what everyone else is for.

Go Bucks!

Im thinking:

OL - 2005
TE - 2002

QB - 2002 - Krenzel proved himself not by stats, but by wins. He went into the 2003 season being a 15-1 starter, garnishing All-Big Ten Honors, and a BCS/NC win. Smith is VERY talented and mobile, with also having a win over Michigan, but has yet to be proven better than Krenzel as a complete QB.

RB - 2002 , Clarett was a freshman phenom.

FB - 2002, Joe can play it both as a FB or as a RB. He was very gifted with speed, talent and build.

WR - 2005/2002 , Holmes is garnished by many reporters this year as the best WR out there, but the way Krenzel and Jenkins clicked on the field was unbelieveable. Its a tie here.

DL - No suprise here - 2002
LB - 2005 - Hawk/Carpenter/Schlegal are prolly the best completed LB Corps. OSU has produced in many years. We have it all with speed, vision, stgrength, etc.

CB - 2002, If Youboty can have a break out year, than its no question, but MAN - Gamble was freakin great.

S - 2002, Doss having won 3 back-to-back All-Americans/Consensus All-American in 02, and Big Ten honors makes this years Saftey set up as clearly remarkable.

P - 2002
PK - 2002

PR/KR - 2005 (lol, whose gonna argue against Teddy Ginn?!?! lol )

[LordJeffBuck]

I applaud your idea, but question your results:

QB: Krenzel vs. Smith/Zwick - STRONG EDGE Krenzel (2002)
RB: Clarett vs. Pittman/Haw/Wells - STRONG EDGE Clarett (2002)
FB: Joe vs. Johnson - EDGE Joe (2002)
WR: Jenkins vs. Holmes - EDGE Jenkins (2002)
WR: Gamble vs. Ginn - EDGE Ginn (2005)
WR: Vance vs. Gonzalez - EVEN
TE: Hartsock vs. Hamby - STRONG EDGE Hartsock (2002)
RT: Olivea vs. Barton - EDGE Olivea (2002)
RG: Bishop vs. Downing - EVEN
OC: Stepanovich vs. Mangold - EDGE Stepanovich (2002)
LG: Clarke vs. Datish - EDGE Clarke (2002)
LT: Sims vs. Sims - EVEN

DT: Anderson vs. Pitcock - EDGE Anderson (2002)
DT: Peterson vs. Green - STRONG EDGE Scott (2002)
DL: Thompson vs. Penton/Richardson - EDGE Thompson (2002)
DE: Smith vs. Kudla - STRONG EDGE Smith (2002)
DE: Scott vs. Patterson - STRONG EDGE Scott (2002)
MLB: Wilhelm vs. Schlegel - EDGE Wilhelm (2002)
WLB: Grant vs. Hawk - STRONG EDGE Hawk (2005)
SLB: Reynolds vs. Carpenter - STRONG EDGE Carpenter (2005)
FS: Nickey vs. Salley - EVEN
SS: Doss vs. Everett/Whitner/Mitchell - STRONG EDGE Doss (2002)
CB: Gamble vs. Youbouty - EDGE Gamble (2002)
CB: Fox vs. ????? - STRONG EDGE Fox (2002)

PK: Nugent vs. Huston - STRONG EDGE Nugent (2002)
P: Groom vs. Trapasso - STRONG EDGE Groom (2002)
LS: Andrews vs. ????? - STRONG EDGE Andrews (2002)
PK: Gamble vs. Ginn - EDGE Ginn (2005)

[2002 starters are the Fiesta Bowl starters, as set forth in the official web site; 2005 starters are returning players from last year, or projected game one starters.]

So, comparing 2002 to 2005:

2002 - strong edge at 11 positions
2002 - edge at 9 positions
2005 - strong edge at 2 positions
2005 - edge at 2 positions
even - 4 positions

Really, no copmparison, based on past history.

HOWEVER, the comparison isn't quite fair, because we already know how the 2002 players performed in 2002, but we don't yet know how the 2005 players will perform this season. Granted, Jenkins, Smith, Scott, Anderson, Wilhelm, and Doss were returning stars, but going into 2002, no one knew that: (a) Krenzel would emerge as one the best field generals in the history of Buckeye football; (b) that Clarett would be a freshman phenom who would give the Bucks a much-needed running attack; (c) that Chris Gamble would star on both sides of the ball; (d) that Kenny Peterson would finally live up to his 5-star billing; (e) that Fox, Grant, Nickey, and Thompson would become valuable role players in a great defense; and (f) that the special teams would be truly special.

The 2005 team also has its stars (Holmes, Ginn, Hawk, Carpenter, Schelgel, Pitcock, Youbouty, Salley), but we have no idea how the young players will perform (especially on the lines and at RB and CB), and we don't know whether either QB will take over as the leader of the team. If several players step up their games, then the 2005 Bucks might just be equal, or at least close, to the 2002 version.

Remember, the 2002 Buckeyes went 14-0 and were ranked the best ever Buckeye squad and the 17th best team of all time (out of the 10,519 teams that have taken the field from 1869-2004) by the Billingsley Report. The 2005 team has a long way to go to match those accomplishments.

[zincfinger]

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

...I'll just list the projected 2005 starters who I think would start over the 2002 starters.

Offense - Based on conventional 2 wide, 1 tight set

OL

1. Mangold
2. Sims
3. Insert name here (I think we have 3/5 over 2002)

I'm going to go with a unit-based, rather than an individual-based approach on some of these, including O-line. The '02 line had some solid individuals, but they frequently did not dominate the line of scrimmage. I like the chances of the '05 line to establish dominance to a greater extent than the '02 line did. If you go by individuals, it's comparable, but I like the current unit better.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

TE - 2002 starter

Hamby's solid, and Frost shows some serious potential, but I'll take Hartsock. The guy was eminently reliable and occasionally made fantastic plays.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

QB - 4. Smith over Krenzel

Not for me. Smith clearly has some physical capabilities that Krenzel did not, but Krenzel seemed to have an uncanny ability to will the team to victory (aside from his numerable clutch performances). Smith may yet show such an ability, but until that time, I've gotta go with Krenzel.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

RB - 2002 starter

A unit approach again. I think a decent argument can be made that the team is better off in '05. Off-the-field-issues aside, Clarett had an injury-plagued year. Very rarely do you see a running back dominate a game the way Clarett dominated the second half of the WSU game, and I don't expect to see it this year. But I think that when you consider the season as a whole, including the games that Clarett missed or played at partial strength, it's entirely feasible that the running back corps will be more productive in '05.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

FB 5. Schnitker/Johnson over 2002 Joe

I'd give this one a toss-up.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

WR 6. Holmes

Mike Jenkins compares favorably to any all-time great you can name, but production on the other side of the field was sporadic. I'll take the current unit over the '02 unit. There are at least three premiere weapons in place now, arguably more, and that wasn't the case in '02, particularly with Gamble focusing on D.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

Defense - based on 4-3

DL - 2002 across the board (ouch)

From an individual standpoint, I'd say '02 in 3 out of 4 positions. From a unit standpoint, no contest. The '05 unit has the potential to be very solid, but the '02 unit was unbelievable; really the engine-room of the team's success, in my opinion. That line dominated the line of scrimmage in every game they played in, with one unmentionable exception, for three consecutive years. We won't see their like for some time.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

LB

1. Hawk
2. Carpenter

Good as '02 was, '05 clearly has the advantage. Reynolds and Grant were very good, Hawk and Carpenter are exceptional. And I always thought very highly of Wilhelm and felt that he was somewhat underrated, but I think “d'Schlegel” has the potential to be just as good, maybe even better. Particularly if d'Andrea stays healthy. The linebacker position, like wideouts, is one where depth is an important factor of comparison. The fact that Freeman, for example, is not a shoe-in to start says a lot about the depth of talent in this unit.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

CB

3. Youbouty

Gamble and Fox were outstanding in '02. I thought Fox was always completely reliable, with the exception of one game in which he played hurt, and Gamble was Mr. Big Play, and his shutdown of Andre Johnson was unbelievable. If a young guy makes a name for himself this year, the comparison could be close, but right now I'll go with '02.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

4. Whitner/Salley over Nickey

This one could be close, too, but when you factor in the starting experience and the leadership that goes with that, I have to take '02. From The Hit Man standpoint, Salley is there, but pound-for-pound, Doss was one of the biggest hitters I've ever seen. By position, I'll take Doss over Whitner, and Salley over Nickey.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

P - 2002
PK – 2002

No question on this one.

Originally Posted by bigtenbadboy

PR/KR - 2005 (Ginn, Holmes)

Again, no question on this one.

Synopsis:

There's a good chance that the '05 offense will put more points on the board. I'll be very surprised if the '05 defense is as good as the '02 version. On both sides, it starts with control of the line of scrimmage. On offense, a line-of-scrimmage-control upgrade appears feasible. On defense, that was a line for the ages, and I don't see it being matched.

[JXC]

Before I read your post...my first thought about compairing 2002 to 2005, is that in 2002 we had Krenzel...and do me, that was the X-factor. Then to read you bench Krenzel for Smith...wow. I don't think so. If I could create a team using the 2002 and 2005 starters...it would probably look a little different than yours.

QB Craig Krenzel '02
RB Maurice Clarett '02
FB Branden Joe '02
WR Ted Ginn Jr. '05
WR Michael Jenkins '02
TE Ben Hartsock '02
RT Ivan Douglas '02
RG Bryce Bishop '02
C Nick Mangold '05
LG Adrien Clarke '02
LT Rob Sims '05

Offense 3 from 2005 8 from 2002

LE Kenny Peterson '02
LT Darrion Scott '02
RT Quinn Pitcock '05
RE Will Smith '02
OLB A.J. Hawk 05
MLB Anthony Schlegel '05
OLB Bobby Carpenter '05
CB Ashton Youboty '05
SS Mike Doss '02
FS Nate Salley '05
CB Dustin Fox '02

Defense 6 from 2005 5 from 2002


We don't know how 2005 players will look...so you are really going off of their 2004 seasons.

I think the 2002 Buckeyes were a lot better than people still give them credit for. Especially on offense. I think it all comes down to the lines. Right now I'd say the 2002 lines look better than the 2005 lines...but if some players live up to potential, then the 2005 lines could be better. I think everyone off the lines has a chance of being as good if not better than their 2002 counterpart.

[lvbuckeye]

umm... Tressel ended up benching Bryce Bishop... i really don't think he was better than Downing will be... and there's no way that Ivan Douglas, who's career was ended by the unfortunate blood clot was better than Kirk Barton... i don't think that it was a coincidence that the '05 O-line really started making strides once Kirk found his way into the starting lineup... though if you want to tell me that Shane Olivea was better than Barton will be, i will definitely listen to you...

either way, i'll take Boone, Sims, Mangold, Downing, Barton over Douglas, Step, Bishop, Clarke and Olivea any day of the week...

'05 O-line has more talent, more depth, and far less injury/ health related issues than '02...

[MarkeyMarque]

Step is the starting center for Az, Olivea starting tackle for SD, Clarke on Eagles roster, Hartsock on Indy roster, Douglas on Raider roster and Sims and Mangold played on 2002 OL as back-ups, I take 2002 OL hands down. BTW Boone hasn't taken a snap yet, lol. And don't get me started on the 2002 DL! The 2005 team has potential and if they get to Rose Bowl let's talk again.

[osugrad21]

Originally Posted by lvbuckeye

.either way, i'll take Boone, Sims, Mangold, Downing, Barton over Douglas, Step, Bishop, Clarke and Olivea any day of the week...

Don't forget Rehring, Mitchum, Person, Cordle, and Skinner for depth...and basically seamless substitutions hopefully.

[Taosman]

The 02 line was never completely healthy! No depth to speak of. The coaches did an amazing job with what they had ! And, they had one heck of a running back to get out of the way of!

[NFBuck]

No way at this point do I take Smith over CK. Krenzel was very fundamentally sound and rarely made mistakes. Smith at this point, to me anyway still has a lot to prove. Yes he had the game of a lifetime against tsun last year, but he did show a tendancy to get rattled when under pressure (outside of The Game). He definately has more "upside" than Craig ever did, but at this point I emphatically would take Krenzel. Just my take on it. Go Bucks!

[bukIpower]

I'll throw my hat in the ring...

QB-Smith ( I like how Krenzel played, and if not for him no NC but at times he drove me crazy when he missed an open man)

RB-Clarett

FB- I'll go with this years pair of Johnson/Schinttniker (can't spell it)

Wr- Over all the 2005 squad gets the nod by far.

O-line- I have 2 of the 5 being from 2005 with sims/sims being the even draw

So over all I have the 2005 offense

Defense-

DL- I'd have Anderson/Pitcock as starters
DE- Both from 2002
LB-All from 2005
CB- Yobouty over Fox (I think fox was amazing, but Yobouty is talented and still young)
CB- Gamble
SS-Doss
FS- Salley

Over all I have 6 players from the 2005 squad.

I agree though that this is unfair to do just yet because we don't know how the 2005 team will play as a team. The 2002 team had heart, and they played together and honestly I don't think we were the most talented team that year its just we played and believed in a system that was taylored for us to win ball games.

This years team has far more talent at the skill position, and I believe overall we're definatly faster as a team as well. One place were its not match for 2002 tho overall is the d-line. They were amazing.

[Taosman]

Andy Groom should have won an award! At the time I think he was a huge weapon on that team! Didn't even get in the top 3 for the Ray Guy I believe? Might have been just as important as Nuge that year!