3-4 Defense Discussion (Split from Grant Thread)

[NJ-Buckeye]

are there any big time college programs that run a 3-4?

with our possible lack of super DTs... and abundance of outstanding LBs...

but is a 3-4 too sophisticated for college...

if we land a couple of these DT studs for next year, we could go back to a traditional 4-3 in 2007 but a 3-4 sounds made to order for 2006

[bucknut11]

That's what they said about 2005 with all the LBs we had and it certainly didn't happen. Granted, D'Andrea and Freeman were both hurt, but it didn't look like they were even planning on trying the 3-4 (fulltime) before the injuries.

[crazybuckfan40]

Originally Posted by NJ-Buckeye

are there any big time college programs that run a 3-4?

with our possible lack of super DTs... and abundance of outstanding LBs...

but is a 3-4 too sophisticated for college...

if we land a couple of these DT studs for next year, we could go back to a traditional 4-3 in 2007 but a 3-4 sounds made to order for 2006

Michigan has ran it the past couple of years.

Just b/c you have the numbers doesnt mean you can run it. They have to be a certain type of player, and your ends have to be big run stuffers not pass rushers like we have.

We do run some 3 down lineman formations, but that is when they bring in the nickel and dime packages.

We will also rush 3 and drop one end into coverage so it kinda looks like a 3-4, but we will always be base 4-3.

[osugrad21]

Originally Posted by crazybuckfan40

your ends have to be big run stuffers not pass rushers like we have.

Not always...the focus is the NG who has to force a double team every snap. The ends need to be mobile to play multiple gaps.

[BB73]

Originally Posted by crazybuckfan40

Michigan has ran it the past couple of years.

I'll bet NJ knows that. He asked if any 'big-time' programs ran the 3-4.

[NJ-Buckeye]

Originally Posted by bucknut11

That's what they said about 2005 with all the LBs we had and it certainly didn't happen. Granted, D'Andrea and Freeman were both hurt, but it didn't look like they were even planning on trying the 3-4 (fulltime) before the injuries.

Yeah.. but I'm sayin it now.. so that'll make the difference .. If Freeman would have stayed healthy, I suspect we would have seen it in 2005

[crazybuckfan40]

Originally Posted by osugrad21

Not always...the focus is the NG who has to force a double team every snap. The ends need to be mobile to play multiple gaps.

Yeah but I don't think we have those guys on our team, besides maybe patterson, but guys like JRich, Wilson, Gholston would get exposed.

They are pass rushing guys and the pass rushing is designated to the outside backers in the 3-4.

[NJ-Buckeye]

Originally Posted by crazybuckfan40

Michigan has ran it the past couple of years.

oh.. that's what that was.. I didn't mean an invisible 3-4.. I meant like the real thing.. like with real LBs

[JohnnyCockfight]

Originally Posted by NJ-Buckeye

are there any big time college programs that run a 3-4?

I don't know if they're big time, but the University of Virginia runs a 3-4 defense--Coach Groh was the LBs coach for the New York Giants of the 80s that ran a 3-4 with Lawrence Taylor and company. UVA has gotten some very good LBs in because they play 4 LB sets, but their overall defense has never come close to ours in that time.

[osugrad21]

Originally Posted by crazybuckfan40

Yeah but I don't think we have those guys on our team, besides maybe patterson, but guys like JRich, Wilson, Gholston would get exposed.

They are pass rushing guys and the pass rushing is designated to the outside backers in the 3-4.

Really? Sorry but I disagree. The 3-4 is designed for confusion. Multiple line stunts and blitz combinations are what make the defense effective. Each member of the front 7 has a gap responsibility on every play, however, those gaps change with every play. There is no designation of a "pass rusher" amongst any position. I'm more familiar with the 3-5/3-3 stack but the basic premise remains the same. Slant the line, bring the heat from various spots on the second level.

You don't think Wilson, Richardson, or Gholston could line up in a 5-7 technique and crash a gap or force a double team?

I respectfully disagree.

EDIT: Split from Larry Grant's thread for further discussion

[Buckeyes27]

3-4 is a great conufusion getter. dont the steelers run that and there defense is really confusioning at times. my high school team ran the 3-4 at times.

i think we have the players to run 3-4. they are quick to the outside and move around the field fast, but you dont truly know until they hit hte field

[Cwood24]

Personally I like the 3-4 better than the 4-3. You have to have the right type of personnel to run it though. In 2004 Michigan had the right personnel to an extent but it just wasn't the right mix of experience. I think to run a 3-4 first off you need that big spacing eating NT in the middle (like a Gabe Watson, but you should hope he has a much better motor), then you need two book-end DE's with some size (6-4ish to 6-6+, 280ish-325ish) and exceptional quickness. Then you need a pair of linebackers who are OLB/DE hybrids with great size and the ability to rush the passer like a Bobby Carpenter or LaMarr Woodley.

I think the perfect situation for Michigan to run the 3-4 would've been in '06 if only they had that proven space eater in the middle. If Watson was still around this year I think they'd have run it because you'd have a Sr. Watson as a space clogging NT, a Jr. Alan Branch and Rondell Biggs at DE's, and LaMarr Woodley standing up at LB'er behind Branch in the 3-4. In fact, you might even see a 3-4 from Michigan this year if Terrance Taylor steps up but I doubt it. Taylor is only a sophmore and I don't think he's ready to hold down the middle all by himself yet. But I do like Michigan's other personnel for the 3-4. LaMarr Woodley fits the OLB role in a 3-4 to a T and it's where he'll play in the NFL. Alan Branch fits the DE role in a 3-4 to a T as well and that is where I think he plays in the NFL as well. Hell, Shawn Crable also fits the OLB in a 3-4 to a T as well and that's where he'll probably play in the NFL. Michigan's front 7 might look something like this next year if Taylor can prove in spring and fall that he can hold down the NT position in a 3-4.

NT- Terrance Taylor
DE- Alan Branch
DE- Rondell Biggs or Tim Jamison
OLB- LaMarr Woodley
ILB- Dave Harris
ILB- Prescott Burgess
OLB- Shawn Crable

[crazybuckfan40]

Originally Posted by osugrad21

Really? Sorry but I disagree. The 3-4 is designed for confusion. Multiple line stunts and blitz combinations are what make the defense effective. Each member of the front 7 has a gap responsibility on every play, however, those gaps change with every play. There is no designation of a "pass rusher" amongst any position. I'm more familiar with the 3-5/3-3 stack but the basic premise remains the same. Slant the line, bring the heat from various spots on the second level.

You don't think Wilson, Richardson, or Gholston could line up in a 5-7 technique and crash a gap or force a double team?

I respectfully disagree.

EDIT: Split from Larry Grant's thread for further discussion

Well when I think 3-4 I think Pittsburgh Steelers who are the king of the 3-4.

They are the king of blitzing their linebackers and all thier lineman have to take on that double team. I honestly don't think it would be pretty with 2 college lineman going at Richardson or Wilson. They would be better suitors at the OLB in the 3-4 and not sure if they would have the speed. Just like Terrell Suggs in college he was the sack leader with about 20 and he was quickly moved to the outside backer with the Ravens in the NFL.

I think our guys could and would manage the 3-4 but are clearly suited for the 4-3. Especially Wilson and Richardson who need their space on teh outside to be able to use their speed and rush the passer.

[osugrad21]

Originally Posted by crazybuckfan40

Well when I think 3-4 I think Pittsburgh Steelers who are the king of the 3-4.

They are the king of blitzing their linebackers and all thier lineman have to take on that double team. I honestly don't think it would be pretty with 2 college lineman going at Richardson or Wilson. They would be better suitors at the OLB in the 3-4 and not sure if they would have the speed. Just like Terrell Suggs in college he was the sack leader with about 20 and he was quickly moved to the outside backer with the Ravens in the NFL.

I think our guys could and would manage the 3-4 but are clearly suited for the 4-3. Especially Wilson and Richardson who need their space on teh outside to be able to use their speed and rush the passer.

You need to watch the line in an odd front defense...you will understand then. The blitzes are based on gap slants and stemming. The 3-5-3 or 3-3-5 is very similar in philosophy. As long as you have the massive NG, the ends/tackles (depending on the 5/6/7 technique used) do not need to be the huge bangers.

[crazybuckfan40]

Originally Posted by osugrad21

You need to watch the line in an odd front defense...you will understand then. The blitzes are based on gap slants and stemming. The 3-5-3 or 3-3-5 is very similar in philosophy. As long as you have the massive NG, the ends/tackles (depending on the 5/6/7 technique used) do not need to be the huge bangers.

I understand, I played it in high school, and blocked against it. I just think that strong defense end that plays outside tackle and inside TE need to be of big stature, b/c these lineman know adays are quick enough and they can get that double team and on up to the linebackers, and a smaller guy is easier to push back and then you are going to have problems with the linebackers not being able to scrape and get to the outside or to fill the gap.