Academically Speaking - SEC VS B10

[calibuck]

About a month back, I was 'called out' by a poster for stating "as we all know, the SEC takes athletes with lesser GPA's", and "as we all know, the Big Ten schools have higher standards than the SEC schools", or words to those effects. I was chastened to be 'accountable' with which I spoke, and back it up. Okay, here 'tis. U.S. News and World Report has issued it's findings for 2008, and I will attempt to 'prove' my point (with their claims) that the above which I asserted is true......

The following is for what USNWR calls 'National Universities' (164 public and 98 private = 262 total) offering wide range of undergrad, masters as well as doctoral degrees, and the data is ranked by up to 15 indicators of academic quality and tabulated.

FIRST TIER - from #1 to #50
#14 Northwestern University (1)
#19 Vanderbilt University (1)
#25 University of Michigan (2)
#38 University of Illinois (3)
#38 University of Wisconsin (4)
#48 Pennsylvania State U. (5)
#49 University of Florida (2)

SECOND TIER - from #51 to #124
#57 The Ohio State University (6)
#59 University of Georgia (3)
#64 Purdue University (7)
#64 University of Iowa (8)
#71 Michigan State University (9)
#71 University of Minnesota (10)
#75 Indiana University (11)
#91 University of Alabama (4)
#96 Auburn University (5)
#96 University of Tennessee (6)
#112 University of South Carolina (7)
#122 University of Kentucky (8)
#124 University of Arkansas (9)

THIRD TIER - ranked from 131 through a tie at 187 ranked alphabetically
Louisiana State University (10)
University of Mississippi (11)
Could not find: Mississippi State U.

I'll leave it to the readers to decide whether I was correct in my assertions. All in all, the academics are better in the Big Ten than in the SEC. Not to say that the best students in the SEC wouldn't succeed in the B10 - they would, but overall, the universities in the North are better than those below the Mason-Dixon line. I'm just sayin'.......Mods, couldn't find a category for 'who gives a hoot', but thought I'd plant it here....

[Sportsbuck28]

This argument isn't too solid unless you show the GPAs/test scores of scholarship football players.

[DiamondBuck]

It's a start... While the list clearly shows the B10 schools on average rank more highly, I believe many of us have taken swipes at UM's "backdoor" (namely Kinesiology) for matriculating prized recruits who are borderline academically. And, on a tangential note, I can't help but be reminded of apparent lack of correlation between the high academic standards at Coral Gables and its football team. So, academic reputation appears to have only a marginal correlation with the academic capabilities of the football team members.

[Gatorubet]

Explain to me WTF Coral Gables has to do with the SEC?

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by Sportsbuck28

This argument isn't too solid unless you show the GPAs/test scores of scholarship football players.

Yep, and - I dunno - maybe at minimum providing the respective entrance requirements at the various schools/conferences for football scholarship athletes would be nice.

The fact that you quote US News and World Report ranking is not proof of your hypothesis.

[jwinslow]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

Explain to me WTF Coral Gables has to do with the SEC?

It has to do with UM. Try reading at b10 speed. If anything, Diamond is questioning the b10, sport

While the list clearly shows the B10 schools on average rank more highly, I believe many of us have taken swipes at UM's "backdoor"

So, academic reputation appears to have only a marginal correlation with the academic capabilities of the football team members.

aka undergrad nerds aren't the best measuring sticks for jocks. Coral Gables was merely another example.

Originally Posted by gator

Yep, and - I dunno - maybe at minimum providing the respective entrance requirements at the various schools/conferences for football scholarship athletes would be nice.

Well the entrance requirements for an offer/LOI seem to be rather different across the board.

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by jwinslow

It has to do with UM. Try reading at b10 speed. If anything, Diamond is questioning the b10, sport

I should slow down my reading? Gotcha.
Cali was speaking about entrance requirement issues exclusively.

About a month back, I was 'called out' by a poster for stating "as we all know, the SEC takes athletes with lesser GPA's", and "as we all know, the Big Ten schools have higher standards than the SEC schools"

I took Diamond's "its a start" to be generally recognizing that topic, and true, adding the competency of athletes once accepted.

But you say that Diamond was questioning the Big 10..?? Do you mean that UM means TSUN, and not Da U? I took both as references to U of M in Coral Gables. If the Kinesiology deal references an issue with TSUN instead of Da U, I missed that.

My bad Diamond.

[jwinslow]

But you say that Diamond was questioning the Big 10..?? Do you mean that UM means TSUN, and not Da U? I took both as references to U of M in Coral Gables. If the Kinesiology deal references an issue with TSUN instead of Da U, I missed that.

Ah now we're all on the same page. A large portion of UM footballers can be found in kinesiology, general studies or undecided. Here is a breakdown from a year or two ago.

[DiamondBuck]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

I should slow down my reading? Gotcha.
Cali was speaking about entrance requirement issues exclusively.


I took Diamond's "its a start" to be generally recognizing that topic, and true, adding the competency of athletes once accepted.

But you say that Diamond was questioning the Big 10..?? Do you mean that UM means TSUN, and not Da U? I took both as references to U of M in Coral Gables. If the Kinesiology deal references an issue with TSUN instead of Da U, I missed that.

My bad Diamond.

Sorry I wasn't clear. BP members spend a lot of time arguing that Wolverine supporters are a bit hypocritical when they bring up Michigan's supposed superior academics as a selling point for recruits.

With regard to Coral Gables, I know that the U is not part of the SEC.. I did mention that I was making a tangential reference but the Hurricanes program is a prime illustration of the apparent disconnect between the academic level of the general student population and that of those who play Football.

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by DiamondBuck

Sorry I wan't clear.

Nah man, you were clear on a Buckeye board. It was me.

I'm not as up to speed on Big 10 issues and never will be to the extent I am about the SEC.

[Muck]

[Gatorubet]

Something about a rubber mallet? Brain and mallet?

Ryan Mallett!!

[goodguy]

Attrition rates (not including medical attrition) between the two leagues would add to your argument. Or better yet, a ratio of players that sign LOI to the number of players that are actually are accepted. How bout graduation rates, especially for African Amercan athletes?

As far as reputation goes, Florida, Vaderbilt and Mississippi (Oxford) have positive images outside the south. As for the rest........
Tennessee, Kentucky, and LSU seem to be the worst of the worst.

[ORD_Buckeye]

There's absolutely no comparison between the Big Ten universities and the SEC universities for overall academics. Anyone arguing the contrary is just being a foolish homer. I don't know where you're getting Ole Miss at a level with Vandy and Florida. Ole Miss' only national recognition is really that some famous writers went there and lived in Oxford. Other than that it's viewed as a rather mediocre, third tier school. It's also interesting that the only two SEC public universities that have built themselves up to Big Ten standards are Florida and Georgia--the two schools (and states) benefiting most from the cultural changes brought about by huge numbers of northerners relocating over the last quarter century.

As far as football players' academics, that's another story. There was a time when the Big Ten separated itself from the other conferences in its academic policies for athletes (no athletic dorms, gpa and degree progress requirements that were significantly higher than NCAA requirements, and a very minimal recruitment of JC and "Prop 48 athletes). Today, I'm not so sure that gap exists--or at least not to the degree it did twenty years ago.

I'd like to see some data (broken down by school) on incoming football players' test scores/class rank/gpa as well as lists of majors once they are in school and what their graduation rates are. I'd also want to see how those input and output numbers compare with the student body at large. Lacking that, it's impossible to really answer the argument, but my gut tells me the gap between the Big Ten and the other BCS conferences in this regard is not what it once was.

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by ORD_Buckeye

There's absolutely no comparison between the Big Ten universities and the SEC universities for overall academics.

I think that you sufficiently opposed the argument nobody made.

Anyone arguing the contrary is just being a foolish homer.

Invisible straw man is sad.

I don't know where you're getting Ole Miss at a level with Vandy and Florida. Ole Miss' only national recognition is really that some famous writers went there and lived in Oxford. Other than that it's viewed as a rather mediocre, third tier school. It's also interesting that the only two SEC public universities that have built themselves up to Big Ten standards are Florida and Georgia--the two schools (and states) benefiting most from the cultural changes brought about by huge numbers of northerners relocating over the last quarter century.

True. Only when we began to see our pasty white skinned neighbors carrying squash rackets and reading the Iliad in the original Greek did we collectively decide to fore go mouth breathing and lynchings and try to morph ourselves into more highly evolved (but slower of foot) sapians.
Relative size of state population, University enrollment, number of alumni, and Endowment revenues flowing from the former were of no moment, but at last sufficient number of northern educated residents were gratefully received into our collective bosom, and, as we all said then, we "larned a beter weigh to done it."

*Edit As much as it pains me to waste a really good [censored]y response, if Ord was referring to increased population, school size, alumni base and endowment size as what he meant as "cultural changes brought about by huge numbers of northerners relocating (to the south)" then yeah. I wasted all of that smart ass for nothin'...(untrue actually, as it is a renewable resource of vast proportions), and beg his pardon. If he meant the improvement of the academic institutions via some other cultural aspect, er, then we might still be yakking. Ord will let me know. Big boy with a fine ability to communicate, as demonstrated on many occasions. I note that the cultural phenomenon of economic draws Gawja and Florida also getting huge numbers of southerners from other states is not mentioned. Maybe I inferred too much. Won't be the last time.

As far as football players' academics, that's another story. There was a time when the Big Ten separated itself from the other conferences in its academic policies for athletes (no athletic dorms, gpa and degree progress requirements that were significantly higher than NCAA requirements, and a very minimal recruitment of JC and "Prop 48 athletes). Today, I'm not so sure that gap exists--or at least not to the degree it did twenty years ago.

I'd like to see some data (broken down by school) on incoming football players' test scores/class rank/gpa as well as lists of majors once they are in school. Lacking that, it's impossible to really answer the argument, but my gut tells me the gap between the Big Ten and the other BCS conferences in this regard is not what it once was.

Yes, I agree with your assumption, but as the inferiority of the SEC admissions standards was the central thesis of the argument, some facts might be nice.