Notre Dame (football only discussion)

[Brutus1]

You're sounding like John Kerry now.

ND is an easy team for any other team to dislike, especially when they're winning. I know quite a few ND fans and everyone one are good, hardcore fans.
I think everyone just gets tired of the media licking up Charlies ball sweat every time they play a good game. Perhaps it's jealousy. I know we'd all be more than happy if the Bucks got that kind of attention.

I just think college football is more exciting when ND is playing well.

To me, they're like the recent Yankees: easy to dislike because they're good, but not quite good enough to win it all.

I was rooting for Michigan only because we have a chance to beat them this year, something we don't have with ND.

[ulukinatme]

Nah, not like Kerry. I've stuck by Notre Dame and watched the really games through the late 90s and early...00s I guess I meant what I said when I congradulated OSU and Michigan on their victories. Maybe I didn't SAY on BP that I was pulling for the Michigan upset against OSU for this year. I did mention here that I thought the ND program/majority of fans were getting a lot of hate. It translated over from the inflated hype from the media, they all decided ND was back because our offense was actually moving more than 100 yards a game for the first time since 93'. I said that a lot of Buckeye fans (not all) were being rude/crass after the Fiesta win, which was where the original discussion came from. Go back through the threads, its there
Anyway, no flipflopping here

[sandgk]

Now I know, and you know that the Bucket of Bullets column is always tending to the acerbic, even so, this latest version was particularly astringent on the subject of ND, more specifically Weis.

In a section called "Charlie Weis getting undressed .."

(2) Some would argue that Moeller High?s Gary Faust was the most embarrassing. Others back the charisma-less reign of Dan Devine. I say that you have to combine the arrogance of Weis and his inability to fulfill those implied promises to reach the depths he will ultimately reach

Yikes!! That is a pretty tough assessment.

[Bucklion]

Originally Posted by ulukinatme

mgb has been a pretty respectable and decent poster on NDFans, a hard thing to come by as far as Michigan fans go. I gave him the same congrats I gave the Bucks after the Fiesta Bowl win. I made no excuses for our poor play in either game

I understand that, and all those statements are perfectly valid. Some posters and other Buckeyes I know have been poor sports about the game though, or just toward ND in general, some have gone beyond poor sportsmanship. Some of this stuff I already mentioned in the ND/Michigan thread

I brought the issue up in a prevous thread, but I don't buy that the media's love affair with ND football should translate to a hatred for the program, or being poor sports about the win in January as previously mentioned. I've heard plenty of crass remarks from Buckeye fans, and your program is above that. At least it should be.
Bucklion, we both know you wouldn't have given me credit either way
Overall, the Michigan fans I've talked to in the last few days have been respectable about the win, so how can't I pull for them to bring the upset...however unlikely it may be. Anyway, like I said, it only benefits us anyway for Michigan to win now. You can't say the Buckeyes wouldn't want the same thing. Most wanted a Michigan win over ND to help their own schedule.

Actually I was in the middle of typing it when I scrolled and saw the post you left on the other board that was posted by someone else. But if you want to try and sweet talk your way out of that, by all means go ahead.

Will be interesting to see what happens after this week...the Michigan State game holds the key to the season it looks like. If ND bounces back, there will be a bunch of rolling up big numbers against inferior competition for many weeks after that, and they will get to USC in all liklihood with the same amount of media and voter hummer they got before this week by the time that game arrives. If they lose again this week though...who knows, but the Saint Charlie bandwagon might be quite a bit lighter (though Ch...never mind, not going to do it) afterwards.

[ulukinatme]

Mmm, actually I expect the ND media hype to die down for the most part for this season, and I'd rather have it that way until we can actually pull off a decent bowl win again. USC has a couple tough games this season before they get to the Irish, the media may start promoting OSU and USC as a possible future match up for the NC now. I think even if we win out the rest of the games (unlikely if we play the same way against USC) the most buzz ND will generate will be during the week of the USC game I imagine.

[Steve19]

I differ. I believe that Notre Dame is still over-rated. If you want to know what fuels the dislike of Notre Dame, its not jealousy, its that they receive unfair treatment and that steals benefits from other teams that deserve it. As for your convicts quip and complaints of unfair treatment by Buckeye fans, just look at the Notre Dame sites say about Ohio State fans, then tell me what the difference is.
This is a football only thread and we don't want it to stray into that whole debate, but it is impossible to not briefly respond to your characterisations of us.

In respect of football, I think we could be about to witness the downfall of Weis every bit as hard as that of Willingham. Both had a book written about them after the first season. Both lost to Michigan badly. This has to affect how Notre Dame plays the balance of the season. The "we can do anything" illusion is now firmly quashed and so is the "Weis is a genius" illusion.

What I believe after watching the TSUN game is that Notre Dame could lose as many as five games this year. The defense is slow and unimaginative. The run can be stopped and Quinn can't work well under pressure. When the illusion that "we are back" turns to mediocrity, teams give up.

I feel safe in my preseason assessment that Notre Dame will lose three games.

[osugrad21]

Link
Published September 18, 2006
Weis flags MSU for emotion

N.D. coach cites on-field hoopla of a year ago

By Joe Rexrode
Lansing State Journal
PITTSBURGH - Fresh off a resounding 38-23 win over Pittsburgh here Saturday, the Michigan State Spartans glanced ahead to Notre Dame with confident anticipation.
"Oh yeah, we're looking forward to it," MSU junior running back Jehuu Caulcrick said of a Saturday evening meeting between the Spartans (3-0) and No. 12 Fighting Irish (2-1) at Spartan Stadium. "Coach (John L.) Smith told us they're gonna come in here with a chip on their shoulder after what we did to them last year."
What the Spartans did was beat Notre Dame 44-41 in overtime, for their fifth straight win in South Bend, Ind. It was MSU's seventh win in nine games against the Irish overall, and it ruined Notre Dame coach Charlie Weis' home debut.

But that's not what Weis and Notre Dame players were talking about Saturday in the wake of an unsightly 47-21 home loss to Michigan. Some MSU players planted a flag on Notre Dame's field in the postgame euphoria, a move that continues to bother the Irish.
Dust off the video. Get ready for another week of "Flag-Gate."
"There's one incident in particular I'll use as motivation," Weis said of MSU at his postgame news conference after the Michigan loss.
"It's a great rivalry and I'm sure they're bringing their flag because they want to stick it in our field," MSU quarterback Drew Stanton said. "We've got to go out and work hard."
Meanwhile, some of the Spartans were tossing around a rumor about Weis as motivation. He supposedly promised, in a speech to boosters over the summer, that Notre Dame would not lose again to MSU as long as he was head coach.
At least, that was the word from a random Internet message board poster, and the Spartans are running with it.
"It's one thing if the players are saying it, because guys talk smack and guys come out there and (settle) it on the field," MSU senior center Kyle Cook said. "But when a head coach comes out and says something like that it shows ... if your head coach says it, you guys better back it up ..."
Brian Hardin, Notre Dame's director of football media relations, said he had never heard of such a statement from Weis. Hardin said he would "look into it."
Weis will be available again to media on Tuesday.
By then, both teams will be in full-preparation mode. The game appears to be a mismatch - in favor of both offenses. MSU used a devastating ground game to come back from a 10-0 deficit at Pitt, rushing for 335 yards and scoring 38 straight points.
The Spartans' defense also played well and held the Panthers without any significant big plays. But Notre Dame's offense is explosive, with Brady Quinn at quarterback, Darius Walker at tailback and Jeff Samardzija and Rhema McKnight at receiver.
The Irish have been inconsistent, following up last week's 41-17 blowout of Penn State by turning the ball over five times against the Wolverines. But they're still potent.
"Now it's time for the heart of our schedule," MSU senior defensive tackle Cliff Ryan said. "We said (the Pitt game) would be a pivotal game, and now we have one that will be even tougher, even more important."
The Fighting Irish fell from No. 2 to No. 12 in the Associated Press Top 25 poll. MSU received votes for the first time this season, coming in at 30th.
Todd Schulz contributed to this report. Contact Joe Rexrode at jrexrode@lsj.com.
Michigan No. 6 in AP poll
NEW YORK - Miami is out of the rankings for the first time since 1999, and Auburn is the new No. 2 in The Associated Press Top 25.
The Hurricanes' latest lopsided loss - a 31-7 debacle at Louisville - ended a streak of 107 consecutive poll appearances that was the nation's longest current streak.
Ohio State remained No. 1 for the fourth straight week. The Buckeyes received 59 first-place votes from a panel of 65 media.
Notre Dame's first loss of the season vacated a spot right behind Ohio State, and Auburn took advantage. The Tigers, who beat LSU 7-3, have their highest ranking since tying for No. 2 with Oklahoma on Nov. 13, 2004.
Southern California is No. 3 and West Virginia is up to No. 4. Florida is fifth, up two places after a 21-20 win at Tennessee.
Michigan moved up to No. 6 after its 47-21 victory at Notre Dame, and the Fighting Irish fell 10 spots to No. 12.
Associated Press

[Best Buckeye]

Originally Posted by Steve19

I differ. I believe that Notre Dame is still over-rated. If you want to know what fuels the dislike of Notre Dame, its not jealousy, its that they receive unfair treatment and that steals benefits from other teams that deserve it..

If you mean like NBC continously promoting Quinn and ND even before the Bucks were done beating Texas as if they had no competion and would never have any competition. So much so that anyone with half a brain could tell they were doing it for the all mighty dollar you would be most correct!

[Best Buckeye]

I'm watching ESPN. They are talking about Meech=ND and the ND defense. And about how Ga.Tech is the team that exposed Nd weakness??
and the other two are agreeing with the narrator. How many dumbasses can be on one show at one time? there should be a limit or something.

[jwinslow]

GT did expose ND... the media refused to acknowledge it at the time, though.

[Best Buckeye]

Originally Posted by jwinslow

GT did expose ND... the media refused to acknowledge it at the time, though.

I thought we exposed them last year -617 yards????

[sandgk]

Originally Posted by Best Buckeye

I thought we exposed them last year -617 yards????

We exposed last years model (and how).

Their point is fair as Weis repeatedly stated their goals to improve speed through a combination if improved technique and the judicious use of their incoming freshmen (oh, and by putting Travis Thomas into the D). Ga. Tech showed that up to a large extent, and on Saturday scUM smoked them for big plays removing any doubt that the Irish still have much work ahead of them on D. (And for that matter that Weis has a job to do on offense, rushing game was horrible for the Irish).

[Bucklion]

Thing is the media, most of the fans, and even the players before this game basically espouse the same thing Roy Williams did about the Lions...if they "play like they're supposed to" (whatever the hell that means) NO ONE can beat ND. The whole "we're just focusing on ourselves" thing kind of backfired, because perhaps they should have concentrated a bit on Michigan maybe. But, the media seems to buy this hook, line, and sinker, and to prove it is a disease, Roy Williams after the 34-7 drubbing they took yesterday said it again AFTER the game..."We'll see them again, if we play like we're supposed to, we'll win".

It doesn't appear ND is good enough to make such a claim, especially on defense.

[Best Buckeye]

Originally Posted by sandgk

We exposed last years model (and how).

Their point is fair as Weis repeatedly stated their goals to improve speed through a combination if improved technique and the judicious use of their incoming freshmen (oh, and by putting Travis Thomas into the D). Ga. Tech showed that up to a large extent, and on Saturday scUM smoked them for big plays removing any doubt that the Irish still have much work ahead of them on D. (And for that matter that Weis has a job to do on offense, rushing game was horrible for the Irish).

Ha ha I knew weis wasnt telling the true , ND still had the same corners,; "you cant fix slow"
I could have guessed that Manningham (speed) could score against the ND corners. And him getting 3 td's doesnt surprise me at all.

[Dryden]

Jay Mariotti calls somebody else "pompous and aloof."

Pot ... meet kettle.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mario...pt-jay171.html

Weis humbled, but Irish myth takes hardest hit
September 17, 2006

BY JAY MARIOTTI SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

SOUTH BEND, Ind. -- The problem with being pompous and aloof, as Charlie Weis is perceived in his craft, is that people tend to laugh hysterically when you lose 47-21. They howl with particular delight when you go so far as to chide the opponent's musical pride and joy -- ''I hate the Michigan fight song,'' he famously said -- only to have it pounded through your eardrums like a 3-1/2-hour broken record.

Oh, the mountains of hyperbole that The Weis Guy somehow manufactured for his program. This was to be the breakthrough season for Notre Dame football, the year Weis won the national title and Brady Quinn won the Heisman Trophy and all the Irish standbys convened for a glorious reunion -- Rockne, the Gipper, the Four Horsemen, Joe Montana, Rudy, Kimberly Dunbar (kidding!) -- while the Victory March played. It was all very nice, right down to the ink on Weis' reported 10-year, $40million extension.

But it was not very real.

For now, Touchdown Jesus doesn't have to move aside for Weis on the library mural. On a humbling Saturday afternoon, the Irish were humiliated by a smashmouth, high-energy Michigan team that pummeled them brutally, as Ohio State did in the Fiesta Bowl. You might say they were Manninghamhandled, as explosive wideout Mario Manningham played a private game of catch with quarterback Chad Henne. How phony was the Irish championship chatter? In two of their last four games, both against elite competition from THE BIG TEN, they were whipped by a combined score of 81-41 and outgained 917-593. As a coach, Weis is a hell of a PR flack, but it's going to take more than huffing and puffing and blowing down the last dozen years before ND is ready for national titles.

Ties to Ty can't be ignored

What's curious about this embarrassing scenario is that Weis' predecessors, Tyrone Willingham and Bob Davie, endured similarly ugly games and instantly were subjected to impatient fans and media calling for their ousters. Willingham's first two seasons rather eerily mirror Weis' same timeframe -- a fast start, a bowl blowout, a bad loss to Michigan the following September -- yet you don't figure the priests and CEOs will be calling secret meetings even if Weis takes the Ty plunge the next two seasons. Were they a bit overzealous in giving Big Time Charlie a lucrative extension through 2015? And by doing so, will they give Weis a lot more rope, if necessary, than they gave Ty when he was canned after Year 3? And remembering Willingham-related protests, what would it say about the university if it shows great patience with an inconsistent white coach after showing little patience with an inconsistent African-American coach?

Say this for Weis: He was overly humble in defeat, probably because he knew all his giggling detractors were watching. He easily could have blamed the rout on Quinn's terrible performance, a running game that gained exactly four net rushing yards or a soft defense that missed tackles and assignments and left Michigan receivers more wide open than the Indiana Toll Road at 3 a.m. But Weis offered up someone else to blame.

Himself.

''I think the first thing you'd have to do is let the team know that you'll be the first guy to take responsibility for the loss,'' he said. ''I think it's easy to sit there and say, 'Well, Quinn, three interceptions, a fumble for a touchdown, that's 24 points.' We can go right down the line. But the bottom line is the team wasn't ready to go. Whose responsibility is that? I mean, it's mine. I'm going to have to do a better job myself.''

He also sent kudos to Michigan, which played like it could beat the Detroit Lions. ''It's only right to give just due to the opponent who just kicked your butt,'' he said.

Pompous? Aloof? In truth, The Weis Guy sounded like a stand-up fellow who realizes his team has issues, including an offense that is supposed to be his area of three-Super Bowl-ring expertise. Conceivably, the Irish still could land in a BCS game by successfully negotiating a fairly mushy schedule until the post-Thanksgiving USC game. But if Quinn and the offense don't reverse course by next weekend, when they go to East Lansing to play an unfazed Michigan State team that planted its flag in the hallowed ND turf last year, they could be looking at 2-2 and a downward spiral.

Glory days are gone?

Is it possible Notre Dame simply isn't a special football program anymore, despite Weis' attempts to rebuild the mystique with his brand of Parcells/Belichick attitude? Suddenly, Weis, Quinn and the Irish no longer are the best story in college football, handing over the hype machine to a more deserving Troy Smith, Ted Ginn Jr. and Ohio State -- as well as Henne, Manningham, Michael Hart and the raging Wolverines.

It was impressive, admittedly, to see Weis emphasize ND pride in a tough moment. After the smackdown, he made sure his players stayed in the stadium and sang the alma mater with students who, remarkably, waited around after a 26-point loss. ''When I was here in school, I might have been in the parking lot tailgating already,'' Weis said. ''Our players understood that you just don't go over there and sing the alma mater after you win. You have to be able to be a part of the student body after a loss, as well.''

As for The Weis Guy, he should have been forced to sing the Michigan fight song.

Naked.