Notre Dame (football only discussion)

[cincibuck]

Originally Posted by Bucky Katt

15 touches + 371 all-purpose yards + 1 touchdown = 4 Heismans!

Well, if any PR department can make a Heisman out of a sow's ear this is it.

[ulukinatme]

Cincibuck, Weis has had 2 full recruiting classes at ND now, 2 1/2 at best if you consider he got the job pretty late in the season. As we can see, he is starting many of these players as well, the freshman and sophomore QBs got the nod before Sharpley who had practiced the offense for 2 straight years.
I wouldn't call all of Willingham's recruiting classes that good either. Where are the seniors he should have recruited? Pretty much all gone, they knew they'd never sniff the field and decided not to stick around. Theres a lack of experience as a result, but as the season goes on I think their execution is getting better as more younger players are grasping the plays and making it onto the field.
You're right about the big games, ND has not won a game against an elite program yet. They've beaten decent talent, but thats it. I think people are expecting too much, ND has been waiting for a "Return to Glory" for years now, and they're eager to jump on the bandwagon of anyone that brings a small glimmer of hope. I think Weis is moving the program in the right direction, this season isn't pretty, but the lessons learned will result in a better team next year.
I wouldn't say that Weis inherited a lot of talent when he came to South Bend, I think he inherited a lot of potential. Players like Maurice Stovall and Jeff Samardzija would not have achieved all that they did if ND stuck with Willingham, Jeff was a bench warmer and Stovall wasn't even mediocre. Brady probably wouldn't have been drafted with the production he was displaying. Anthony Fasano was decent before, but his production reached a whole 'nother level his senior year.

[tsteele316]

Originally Posted by ulukinatme

Cincibuck, Weis has had 2 full recruiting classes at ND now, 2 1/2 at best if you consider he got the job pretty late in the season. As we can see, he is starting many of these players as well, the freshman and sophomore QBs got the nod before Sharpley who had practiced the offense for 2 straight years.
I wouldn't call all of Willingham's recruiting classes that good either. Where are the seniors he should have recruited? Pretty much all gone, they knew they'd never sniff the field and decided not to stick around. Theres a lack of experience as a result, but as the season goes on I think their execution is getting better as more younger players are grasping the plays and making it onto the field.
You're right about the big games, ND has not won a game against an elite program yet. They've beaten decent talent, but thats it. I think people are expecting too much, ND has been waiting for a "Return to Glory" for years now, and they're eager to jump on the bandwagon of anyone that brings a small glimmer of hope. I think Weis is moving the program in the right direction, this season isn't pretty, but the lessons learned will result in a better team next year.
I wouldn't say that Weis inherited a lot of talent when he came to South Bend, I think he inherited a lot of potential. Players like Maurice Stovall and Jeff Samardzija would not have achieved all that they did if ND stuck with Willingham, Jeff was a bench warmer and Stovall wasn't even mediocre. Brady probably wouldn't have been drafted with the production he was displaying. Anthony Fasano was decent before, but his production reached a whole 'nother level his senior year.

typical domer spin.

1. where are all the seniors? they are the only thing close to talent on that turd unit called a defense. laws, brokingham, zibiboxer, vernaglia, lambert. the only thing close to reliable or talented on that horse abortion of an offense are ty's seniors; sullivan, carlson, and travis thomas.

the willingham excuse is played out and faulty at best.

[cincibuck]

Ukulele, I'll give you that you follow the Irish much closer than I do. I'll also give you that you're about the most sane Irish booster I've ever talked to.

If Smerzzdjnnihhe sat on the bench as a freshman and a soph, it is nothing more than what goes on at any other big time program. e.g., this is the first year Robiski has been a featured player, and Hartline, and Beanie Wells, and Boeckman. A.J. Hawk was fifth in the LB depth chart not so long ago.

My point being that they all got PT as freshmen and sophs, and not just in mop up time. I simply don't buy that the talent isn't there at Notre Dame. It seems to me that his years in the pros led Charlie to believe that you only play the top guys unless you can't. He never had to deal with graduation. i.e., there was a learning curve to the college game that Charlie didn't see... perhaps because his arrogance blinded him. Instead he made statements that inferred that he was bringing one the brightest minds in football to ND and the college world better line up and kiss his ring. He blew off Tressel before the Fiesta Bowl, he announced his arrival with a show of Super Bowl rings and statements about the strategic/tactical advantage ND would have over other college programs.

Since Charlie left ND as a grad things have changed. ND is no longer the only program that can recruit nationally. ND is no longer the only program that gets national TV coverage.

Forty years ago an ND schedule like this year's would have been looked at thusly: Ga Tech, big win. Penn State - Michigan, toss up, Michigan State, win, Purdue, big win, UCLA - USC, toss up, BC, big win. If this year's Irish had marched through that line up with 2 losses I'd still think of them as a top 25 team. If they had gone through losing just 1 I'd have them in the top 10. But it's not 1967 anymore.

Charlie may yet turn the program around and make them a consistent Top 25 team, but I sincerely doubt that he's going to make them a consistent Top ten team again. In the mean time he's going to pay a hell of a price for all of his boasting and arrogance.

[Dryden]

Originally Posted by cincibuck

My point being that they all got PT as freshmen and sophs, and not just in mop up time. I simply don't buy that the talent isn't there at Notre Dame. It seems to me that his years in the pros led Charlie to believe that you only play the top guys unless you can't. He never had to deal with graduation. i.e., there was a learning curve to the college game that Charlie didn't see...

I've mentioned before that the most egregious episode of running-it-up with the starters was the ND/PSU game last year, which really sticks in my craw due to the fake punt with the game well in hand. With that in mind, I decided to go back and check the play-by-play charts for ND's 05-06 seasons, and I found that in every single game, the starters were still playing in games up by more than 3 possessions in the 4th quarter, at least for one drive.

All of the following are 4th quarter scores where Quinn, Walker, and co were still playing:

2005
Pitt - up 42-13
BYU - up 42-23
Navy - up 35-14
Syracuse - up 27-3

2006
Penn State - up 34-3
Air Force - up 33-10
Army - up 34-3
Stanford - up 31-10

While the BYU game was already decided by a 19-point margin, I've got no problem giving Charlie a pass there since BYU could score in a hurry (especially against his own secondary) and make it interesting. The other seven games, though, I don't know what the excuse is. Pitt, PSU, Stanford, Syracuse, and the Service Academies ARE NOT going to rally from 21+ point 4th quarter deficits. Period.

[ulukinatme]

Crap, I started a good reply and lost it. Basically, Travis Thomas has had an attitude problem this year, and as a result his 5th year has resulted in him losing his starting position to Aldridge and Allen I think. Sullivan was the one snapping the ball 10 feet over the QBs head at Michigan and has had problems blocking. Can't fault Carlson, hes performed when given the opportunity.
I don't have problems with most of the 5th year Seniors on defense, Zibby misses one here and there but hes a leader, leading tackler, and causes turnovers. My problem with the seniors are Ty's last recruiting class, theres almost no one left and the only starters are Crum who turned out great and Brockington who has come alive this year, I'm on the fence with Lambert. Its scary to think the lack of upperclassmen there would have been if there weren't as many 5th year seniors as there are, most of them could have left last year and had an NFL contract (Maybe not all big ones) or a career. My point is that rather than having a majority of upperclassmen leading this team, most of the team is comprised of young talent, talent that is going to make mistakes. I think they're learning, but the process is slow.
To go along with what Cinci said, I think we should have worked these guys in more often last year. We may not be starting freshmen at WR, QB, RB, and LB if we had. Our O-line would have had more experience, its comprised of backup Juniors and Sophs mostly. Next year they may be fine, but getting to that point will be rocky road.
You're right about this not being the '60s, but a lot of fans still expect this team can win 8-9 wins year in and year out. Like I said, they're always expecting the return, I think Notre Dame can still be a top level program, but its not there yet. The recruiting is in the right direction, the attitude is there, they just don't know how to win yet. People are expecting every new coach will herald the return, and the team was going in the wrong direction for awhile. They're still doing some things wrong, but they're improving. Some fans aren't patient...I've suffered through some awful seasons and losses through the 90s and early 2000, the last two years were actually a breath of fresh air. I was prepared for a tough season, so I think thats why I haven't been crying "Why aren't we 5-0?"
Looking at this team, the biggest problem I see is the offense. It may not be there this year, but it'll get there. When the offense is producing, the defense responds better. Special Teams needs help too in the kicking game, but the offense has to be consistent before that becomes the primary concern.

[cincibuck]

The expectations of the ND fan base are legendary... and unrealistic. Michigan is no longer a regional team, nor Ohio state, nor is Georgia Tech, nor Michigan State, Penn State and BC.

Short and sweet, ND is no longer going to get all the national level talent in this recruiting environment. They do get a leg up with kids coming out of Catholic high school programs, but, at the risk of sounding racist, guess what? Most of those programs are built around suburban white kids.

Unmentioned in the expectations is that this is Notre Dame's sixth coach since the 1980 season. Out of that group only Holtz survived his first contract. I'm sure all were told, as Jerry Faust was, "Run a clean program, win more than you lose and you've got a home." Bull [censored] then, bull [censored] now.

[BB73]

Originally Posted by ulukinatme

My problem with the seniors are Ty's last recruiting class, theres almost no one left and the only starters are Crum who turned out great and Brockington who has come alive this year, I'm on the fence with Lambert.

The number of seniors is very comparable to how many seniors Ohio State is playing this year.

Offense
OT - Barton
FB - three seniors (2 were walk-ons) sharing a part-time position

Defense
LB - Grant (Jr. College transfer, 2nd year on team); backed up by Terry, who has been injured

Special Teams
Makridis - former walk-on who snaps for punts, but not for kicks

Here is the sum total of 4th-year and 5th-year seniors in tOSU's two-deep roster who had a ranking of at least 3 stars from either Rivals or Scout:

Kirk Barton, *** offensive tackle

That's it - a single OT who wasn't considered a stud when he was signed.

Note to ND trustees/influential alumni:

Please, keep blaming Willingham, and keep Charlie Weis for the duration of his contract.

[Bleed S & G]

Originally Posted by LordJeffBuck

Notre Dame hasn't won a Heisman since 1987 (Tim Brown) - no reason to believe that that string will be broken any time soon.

Isn't that about the same time they last won a bowl game?

[methomps]

Attrition in the senior class could explain why ND isn't good. It doesn't explain why ND isn't competitive.

[Saw31]

Originally Posted by methomps

Attrition in the senior class could explain why ND isn't good. It doesn't explain why ND isn't competitive.

LOL!! CREMEPUFF!!!

[Jaxbuck]

Originally Posted by ulukinatme

My point is that rather than having a majority of upperclassmen leading this team, most of the team is comprised of young talent, talent that is going to make mistakes. I think they're learning, but the process is slow.

2002 NC year JT had 13 SR's

2007 he has 9

Like Methomps said, I can buy the lack of upperclassmen as a reason to not be an elite team. It does not explain why the young guys can't even execute basic plays/be competative.

[ulukinatme]

I count 8 Seniors that start at least part of the time, but of those 8 I'm confidant in the abilities of about half of them. Lambert, Brown/Stevenson, and Sullivan aren't very consistent, if there was more depth/experience I think they wouldn't stand a chance at starting. As it is one of the other Corners, 5th year Senior Wooden, lost his starting spot to two Sophomores. Wooden was a starter at least the last 2 years. Travis Thomas is another 5th year guy, relegated to Special Teams for the most part now.
In any event, the lack of seniors has hurt the offense more than the defense, the defense suffers as a result of being on the field as the offense has gone 3 plays and out far too often. Take a look at weaker programs that play a powerhouse, they often get blown out in the 2nd half as a defense can't keep up all game. The same thing happened in ND's first 4 games, at Purdue the offense started producing in the 2nd half which gave the defense a 2nd wind and some hope probably.
I think the offense will produce as these kids get more snaps under their belt, they've shown some improvement since the first 3 games already. The O-line has been the root of the problem at the start, skill positions seem to execute fine when the O-line will open up holes and provide protection.

[Jaxbuck]

Originally Posted by ulukinatme

I count 8 Seniors that start at least part of the time, but of those 8 I'm confidant in the abilities of about half of them. Lambert, Brown/Stevenson, and Sullivan aren't very consistent, if there was more depth/experience I think they wouldn't stand a chance at starting. As it is one of the other Corners, 5th year Senior Wooden, lost his starting spot to two Sophomores. Wooden was a starter at least the last 2 years. Travis Thomas is another 5th year guy, relegated to Special Teams for the most part now.
In any event, the lack of seniors has hurt the offense more than the defense, the defense suffers as a result of being on the field as the offense has gone 3 plays and out far too often. Take a look at weaker programs that play a powerhouse, they often get blown out in the 2nd half as a defense can't keep up all game. The same thing happened in ND's first 4 games, at Purdue the offense started producing in the 2nd half which gave the defense a 2nd wind and some hope probably.
I think the offense will produce as these kids get more snaps under their belt, they've shown some improvement since the first 3 games already. The O-line has been the root of the problem at the start, skill positions seem to execute fine when the O-line will open up holes and provide protection.

wait a minute...so now GT(3-2), PSU(3-2), Purdue(5-0 vs air), MSU(4-1) and tsun(3-2) are powerhouses this year? MSU is a nice team, Purdue is TBD, the other 3 are mediocre at best.

I say with 2.5 years of recruiting under his ample belt, CW still can't field a team that is even slightly competative with middle of the road BCS schools. Thats not a youth issue, thats a coaching issue.

[tsteele316]

I count 8 Seniors that start at least part of the time, but of those 8 I'm confidant in the abilities of about half of them. Lambert, Brown/Stevenson, and Sullivan aren't very consistent, if there was more depth/experience I think they wouldn't stand a chance at starting.

Hmmm, there was never a complain about these guys until this season. puzzling.

As it is one of the other Corners, 5th year Senior Wooden, lost his starting spot to two Sophomores. Wooden was a starter at least the last 2 years. Travis Thomas is another 5th year guy, relegated to Special Teams for the most part now.

maybe thomas shouldn't have been moved from offense to defense repeatedly.

In any event, the lack of seniors has hurt the offense more than the defense, the defense suffers as a result of being on the field as the offense has gone 3 plays and out far too often. Take a look at weaker programs that play a powerhouse, they often get blown out in the 2nd half as a defense can't keep up all game. The same thing happened in ND's first 4 games, at Purdue the offense started producing in the 2nd half which gave the defense a 2nd wind and some hope probably.

yes, the 31 points that michigan hung in the 1st half and 23 purdue scored in the 1st half really wore down ND's defense in the 2nd half.

I think the offense will produce as these kids get more snaps under their belt, they've shown some improvement since the first 3 games already. The O-line has been the root of the problem at the start, skill positions seem to execute fine when the O-line will open up holes and provide protection.

here's where my little rant comes into play. all of the castigating blame on willingham for this season is just too laughable. All of these "duds" willingham recruited have been under chuckwagon's reign for going on 3 seasons. none of them has shown any real improvement. all you heard about was how good zibiboxer was in 2005. come 2007, you wouldn't even know he was still on the team. as the offense gets more reps, they'll get better? probably. unfortunately, your head coach was too busy racking up stats to bother getting any experience for his underclassmen. Sullivan was going to be the OL anchor this year, but now he's struggling.

Just like last season, ND returned 4 starting OL, Carlson, Quinn, Walker, He/She WR, and Rhema McKnight, yet were more inconsistent and less productive offensively. But, that couldn't be blamed on Willingham, so it was conveniently ignored.