Appalachian State 34, Michigan 32 (Final!)

[Saw31]

This is a stupid [censored]ing arguement, but now that I have also been indirectly called an idiot because I agree with the ASU coaches let me spell something out. Not so long ago we had a nationally televised NFL game where a winning FG snap was [censored]ed up and the clock ran out because of it. Every friggin coach in the country saw this. Kicking this ball on first and giving themselves time if they happen to have to fall on a bad snap was a good call. Even more so because this is a 1aa kicker/snapper in a game most of them probably thought they had no chance in, at a point in time when they were certainly out of control emotionally. This kick was for a win or loss, not a win or tie. THE most important thing is to make the kick first, clock second. Leaving a team 27 seconds to drive the field, even with the college rules, IS NOT some huge mega-risk you guys are trying to make it out to be. Henne's pass was beyond luck, requiring a blatant push-off by Manningham and this implication that they should have expected scUM to move the length of the field in 27 seconds is a whole new level of ridiculous. Just because Doug Flutie did it 30 years ago doesn't make it probable, likely, or even a small possibility. The fact that Henne couldn't hit a pass most of the day makes it such a low risk decision, how the [censored] can anyone say "what a dumbass call"? The man knows his team. He rolled the dice. His team won the game. You can't argue with his results...errr...I mean, you can't argue with his results unless you're at BP...

Now, the football Gods have showered us with the ultimate of gifts, a gift that we will savor forever, so shut the [censored] up and enjoy scUM's loss you ingrateful douchebags.


I tried to sound as angry as possible. Did it work? No? Hard to be angry in this thread I guess. Eh, I thought the rolling eyes at the end was a good touch. Can someone give me a "Saw31 is a [censored]ing mental midget!" so we can keep this stupid arguement going...

[bucknut11]

Originally Posted by Oh8ch

Oh the Humanity!

College Football Forum

Answer to 2007 problem

[jlb1705]

Whatever amount of time you're leaving or not leaving for scUM is putting the cart before the horse in that situation if you're the App. State coach. If his team misses the kick, it doesn't matter how much time is left on the clock. The coach's first responsibility was to put his team in the best position to make a go-ahead FG, and by his assessment the path he chose was the best for his team. Given the virtual anonymity of his team before that game, him and his staff are probably the only people who have seen that team enough to be qualified to make that assessment. I think people are making the mistake of thinking that the strategy that we'd want and expect Ohio State to use in that situation would have been a good fit for App. State. I don't think that's necessarily the case.

As for the idea of moving the ball to the center to give the kicker a better angle - that's the conventional wisdom, but it does not necessarily hold for all kickers. My best friend was a right-footed placekicker, and he always told me that kicks from the left hash were his preferred angle - even over one that was "centered", and that kicks from the right hash were most difficult for him since he felt like he was kicking across his body. Not saying that either one is true for everybody, but it's possible that App. State was already lined up in the best spot for their kicker on 1st down.

[MililaniBuckeye]

Originally Posted by tibor75

yeah, I was out of town, and confused when I saw the highlights of the big gain by App State finishing with 30 seconds on the clock and the FG being kicked w/ 30 seconds left. ASU really screwed up the end of that game and probably deserved to lose on the basis of that alone.

Holy [censored]ing [censored]...twice in the last couple weeks we totally agree on something. I suggest everyone head out to their local store and get emergency supplies ASAP...the Apocalypse is upon us.

[jwinslow]

jlb, I believe Nuge preferred the left hash over any other spot as well.

[Buckeyeskickbuttocks]

Love this breakdown from

Originally Posted by [URL="http://michiganzone.blogspot.com/&quot

That Blog[/url]]THE DEFENSE

My god, do they suck. What else can you really say? They made the ASU QB look like Vince Young out there. These guys couldn't and didn't stop [censored]. It was 2005 all over again. One stop there at the end and, while ugly, we win. Guess again.

[tibor75]

Originally Posted by jlb1705

Whatever amount of time you're leaving or not leaving for scUM is putting the cart before the horse in that situation if you're the App. State coach. If his team misses the kick, it doesn't matter how much time is left on the clock. The coach's first responsibility was to put his team in the best position to make a go-ahead FG, and by his assessment the path he chose was the best for his team. Given the virtual anonymity of his team before that game, him and his staff are probably the only people who have seen that team enough to be qualified to make that assessment. I think people are making the mistake of thinking that the strategy that we'd want and expect Ohio State to use in that situation would have been a good fit for App. State. I don't think that's necessarily the case.

As for the idea of moving the ball to the center to give the kicker a better angle - that's the conventional wisdom, but it does not necessarily hold for all kickers. My best friend was a right-footed placekicker, and he always told me that kicks from the left hash were his preferred angle - even over one that was "centered", and that kicks from the right hash were most difficult for him since he felt like he was kicking across his body. Not saying that either one is true for everybody, but it's possible that App. State was already lined up in the best spot for their kicker on 1st down.

Sorry, that strategy we are arguing for is the strategy that 99% of intelligent coaches would pick.

And really teh placement of the kick is besides the point. You dont kick a FG with 30 seconds left and a first down at the 10. Doesn't matter if you dont' have any timeouts. you kneel and then spike it with less time left. Or at least force scUM to burn a timeout which they would of course do.

Somebody argued that kicking w/ 30 seconds left improves teh chances that you can botch teh snap and kick again. Well, that scenario is 10 times less likely than scUM getting in FG in 30 seconds. And more importantly, I don't think 30 seconds is long enough anway to botch a snap and rocover it and kick again when you have no timeouts left.

[BB73]

Originally Posted by tibor75

Somebody argued that kicking w/ 30 seconds left improves teh chances that you can botch teh snap and kick again. Well, that scenario is 10 times less likely than scUM getting in FG in 30 seconds. And more importantly, I don't think 30 seconds is long enough anway to botch a snap and rocover it and kick again when you have no timeouts left.

That's true. That's why you tell the holder that he needs to throw the ball through the end zone on a bad snap on 3rd down. As a coach, you have time to tell him that when the offense is taking the first down snap and then lining up to spike it on second down. You might not have time to properly instruct him when sending the kicking team out there on first down.

That's another reason, along with the way practice sessions work, to not have your QB as your holder.

[MililaniBuckeye]

Originally Posted by Saw31

This is a stupid [censored]ing arguement, but now that I have also been indirectly called an idiot because I agree with the ASU coaches let me spell something out. Not so long ago we had a nationally televised NFL game where a winning FG snap was [censored]ed up and the clock ran out because of it. Every friggin coach in the country saw this. Kicking this ball on first and giving themselves time if they happen to have to fall on a bad snap was a good call.

ASU had no TOs left. If they [censored]ed up the attempt, one of two things happens:

1. The clock runs out and they lose
2. The have to huddle up fast enough to spike the ball before time expires

Guess what, #2 is what I suggested anyway, but after a designed run-and-kneel instead of after a botched kick. Oh yeah, if a team can't execute which amounts to little more than an extra point, then maybe they don't deserve to win.

Now, jlb1705 suggested that maybe their kicker prefers the right hash instead of the middle. OK, cool. In that case, instead of a run-and-kneel they just take the snap, kneel (keeping the ball at the right hash), and quickly flip the ball to the ref who would get the ball ready for play within 10-15 seconds at the latest. If Michigan doesn't burn their TO (which they wouldn't), now you just wait for the clock to tick down to 4-5 seconds left in the game, spike the ball, and kick the FG with no time left.

Clock.
[censored]ing.
Management.

[BB73]

Originally Posted by jwinslow

jlb, I believe Nuge preferred the left hash over any other spot as well.

It's very doubtful that he preferred the hash inside the 5-yard line.

[jlb1705]

Originally Posted by tibor75

Sorry, that strategy we are arguing for is the strategy that 99% of intelligent coaches would pick.

I'm not sorry. I'm arguing for that 1%. There's no way I'd want Ohio State to do anything remotely resembling what App. State did to close the game. However, I believe their coach qualifies as an "intelligent coach", having been a head coach for about 20 years and being the leader of the two-time defending national champions at his level - and it is entirely plausible that in his assessment of the situation he found his team in one of those 1%-of-the-time situations.

It's easy for all of us to sit here and say what we would've done in that situation, or how simple it is to manage the clock in that situation. Keep in mind though that we're talking about college students here, and especially on the road in pressure situations, and in the first game of the year, they are prone to doing inexplicable things the completely screw things up (Chris Webber says "hi"). Then again, coaches make mistakes in pressure situations too (LLLLLoyd Carr says "hi"), so maybe the ASU coach lost his mind at the end of the game. I don't know, and I don't think it's as cut & dried as it's being made out to seem. Sometimes you're lucky, but I think the best and most successful coaches are the ones who can sort these things out calmly on the fly.

I also think it's much easier for us to criticize because we're spoiled by having a head coach in Jim Tressel who is able to prepare for and react to these kinds of situations better than most others in the business.

[jwinslow]

Originally Posted by jlb1705

I'm not sorry. I'm arguing for that 1%. There's no way I'd want Ohio State to do anything remotely resembling what App. State did to close the game. However, I believe their coach qualifies as an "intelligent coach", having been a head coach for about 20 years and being the leader of the two-time defending national champions at his level - and it is entirely plausible that in his assessment of the situation he found his team in one of those 1%-of-the-time situations.

Who knows... maybe his team had more flubbed snaps in practice than he would like... and he'd rather take his chances with UM scoring than trusting the FG to go well.
fey've never seen before.

Wasn't the kick a bit of a line drive anyway? I doubt that was how they planned it.

Originally Posted by BB73

It's very doubtful that he preferred the hash inside the 5-yard line.

True, that is likely an exception to that preference.

[Bonus]

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[Bonus]

YouTube - Blades Of Glory - Best Bits - Part 1 - Jimmy McIllroy

[Best Buckeye]

Originally Posted by Bonus

YouTube - Blades Of Glory - Best Bits - Part 1 - Jimmy McIllroy

Maybe that should go in the Movie or skating thread?