Barack Obama (election coverage only-official)

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman

how man sos does mccain have as far as endorsements? 3 or 4?

Talking 'bout African Americans, Generals, Secretaries of State, UN Ambassadors or what???

[jimotis4heisman]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

Talking 'bout African Americans, Generals, Secretaries of State, UN Ambassadors or what???

sos=sec of state

[jwinslow]

Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman

sos=sec

[Tresselbeliever]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeMike80

neo-cons are only conservatives to the far left Gator.....

I don't agree with that statement. Since Richard Nixon, there have been three type of foreign policies. Nixon and Kissinger, and then Ford and Kissinger, practiced realpolitik, putting morality and ideology aside and placing practicality and pragmatism on the forefront. But the public rejected that approach and preferred a more ideology in the practice of foreign policy, and they got that in Reagan. Reagan however, was tough on words but carefully avoided direct confrontations. But with the collapse of the Soviet Union, many of the traditional conservatives who embraced Reagan's tough ideological stance advocated for a more direct role for America around the world, a more proactive and more aggressive approach. Make no mistake about it. Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney didn't just appear out of thin air. These guys are really at the heart of the conservative foreign policy establishment, and have shaped the views and conduct of conservative administrations after the cold war. The only thing is that they failed terribly in Iraq, but that does not make them any less conservative.

[jimotis4heisman]

Originally Posted by jwinslow

secretary of state.

[BuckeyeMike80]

Originally Posted by Tresselbeliever

I don't agree with that statement. Since Richard Nixon, there have been three type of foreign policies. Nixon and Kissinger, and then Ford and Kissinger, practiced realpolitik, putting morality and ideology aside and placing practicality and pragmatism on the forefront. But the public rejected that approach and preferred a more ideology in the practice of foreign policy, and they got that in Reagan. Reagan however, was tough on words but carefully avoided direct confrontations. But with the collapse of the Soviet Union, many of the traditional conservatives who embraced Reagan's tough ideological stance advocated for a more direct role for America around the world, a more proactive and more aggressive approach. Make no mistake about it. Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney didn't just appear out of thin air. These guys are really at the heart of the conservative foreign policy establishment, and have shaped the views and conduct of conservative administrations after the cold war. The only thing is that they failed terribly in Iraq, but that does not make them any less conservative.

I don't think he was actually talking just about the administration, but Congress as well. At least that's how I responded too it later on down....

EDIT to add: I don't think the term neo-con was coined to cover conservatives who were conservative pre-9/11. I was always under the impression that the term was meant for those who became much more to the right in their foreign policy views more than anything else. Being that politics is the art of moving the goalposts on ones adversary, I could have missed something, but, in my view, neither Cheney or Rumsfield are in that fold at all.

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by jwinslow

That's the problem with sped reeddin

My bad Jim.

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeMike80

I don't think he was actually talking just about the administration, but Congress as well. At least that's how I responded too it later on down....

EDIT to add: I don't think the term neo-con was coined to cover conservatives who were conservative pre-9/11. I was always under the impression that the term was meant for those who became much more to the right in their foreign policy views more than anything else. Being that politics is the art of moving the goalposts on ones adversary, I could have missed something, but, in my view, neither Cheney or Rumsfield are in that fold at all.

I use neo-con as the interventionist New World American Century philosophy guys and gals. Simply not liking Abortion or flag burning, or liking tax cuts does not a neocon make.

[Tresselbeliever]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeMike80

EDIT to add: I don't think the term neo-con was coined to cover conservatives who were conservative pre-9/11. I was always under the impression that the term was meant for those who became much more to the right in their foreign policy views more than anything else. Being that politics is the art of moving the goalposts on ones adversary, I could have missed something, but, in my view, neither Cheney or Rumsfield are in that fold at all.

The modern neo-cons really started to gain influence during and in the aftermath of the israeli war in 73. At the onset of the war, Kissinger and Nixon decided to not immediately supply Israel with weapons in fear that the Israels would achieve a swift and devastating victory over the Arabs, whom Nixon and Kissinger were courting as energy and anti-communist partners. That really drew the wrath of a lot of the modern neocons, including Richard Perle, who was an aid to Sen. Henry Jackson. The neocons, led by Perle, really started to flex their muscles in the demanding to have a say in the terms of the wheat export deal with the USSR, demanding that the Soviets loosen their quota on the number of jews who could emigrate. The confrontation that ensued was a cause to the collapse of detente.

So basically, these guys are in favor of a confrontation approach, which was held in check during the cold war because of military realities. But after the USSR collapsed, these guys started to advocate for more direct military applications. Cheney and Rumsfeld both strongly believed in the greater projection of American power, and they were representative of the conservative movement in general until Iraq happened.

[BuckeyeMike80]

Originally Posted by Tresselbeliever

The modern neo-cons really started to gain influence during and in the aftermath of the israeli war in 73. At the onset of the war, Kissinger and Nixon decided to not immediately supply Israel with weapons in fear that the Israels would achieve a swift and devastating victory over the Arabs, whom Nixon and Kissinger were courting as energy and anti-communist partners. That really drew the wrath of a lot of the modern neocons, including Richard Perle, who was an aid to Sen. Henry Jackson. The neocons, led by Perle, really started to flex their muscles in the demanding to have a say in the terms of the wheat export deal with the USSR, demanding that the Soviets loosen their quota on the number of jews who could emigrate. The confrontation that ensued was a cause to the collapse of detente.

So basically, these guys are in favor of a confrontation approach, which was held in check during the cold war because of military realities. But after the USSR collapsed, these guys started to advocate for more direct military applications. Cheney and Rumsfeld both strongly believed in the greater projection of American power, and they were representative of the conservative movement in general until Iraq happened.

I might be showing my age I guess then, when I say I'd never heard of the term until 2001

[Tresselbeliever]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeMike80

I might be showing my age I guess then, when I say I'd never heard of the term until 2001

Well it's really up to old geezers like me to pass down my knowledge of history in oral narrative.

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by Tresselbeliever

Well it's really up to old geezers like me to pass down my knowledge of history in oral narrative.

Tell us about the gold standard Tress....

[Tresselbeliever]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

Tell us about the gold standard Tress....

Do you want to hear about the abolishment of the gold standard during Nixon or the silver currency crisis of the 1790s?

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by Tresselbeliever

Do you want to hear about the abolishment of the gold standard during Nixon or the silver currency crisis of the 1790s?

When Bryant finished his "Cross of Gold" speech, did you clap?

[Tresselbeliever]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

When Bryant finished his "Cross of Gold" speech, did you clap?

No, but only because I wasn't too happy with him about the prohibition thing.