Arizona Senator John McCain (official)

[CookyPuss]

Originally Posted by jlb1705

I just don't see any way that talking about McCain's quote could be a winner for Obama. And putting aside my support for Obama, this is not the kind of thing I want the candidates to be talking about. There are times when "spin" is pure BS, and there are rare occasions where it is perhaps closer to the truth than what was originally said. I think that's the case for both quotes. I know what each of them meant to say - though they may have said it in a clumsy way - and I don't fault them for the sentiment they are trying to convey.

100% agreed. Both individuals were trying to convey how their experiences brought them to a different level of love/pride in their country. Both quotes can easily be taken out of context and used to imply lack of love/pride. I'll post a link to the video of the Abrams show when it becomes available as the discussion was very interesting. They actually ran across the McCain quote by accident while trying to provide some background for his wife's comments from this morning. I think it just demonstrates how silly the whole "gotcha" game can be sometimes.

Here's the video: MSNBC Video Player

[CookyPuss]

['BusNative]

Wonkette: The D.C. Gossip ? Blog Archive ? McCain-Lieberman Ticket Could Be Saltiest, Crustiest Combo Since Kettle Chips

AWESOME TWOSOME
McCain-Lieberman Ticket Could Be Saltiest, Crustiest Combo Since Kettle Chips

Who would make the most terrible running mate for John McCain, an ill-tempered old fraud who is despised by everybody in the Republican Party? Joe Lieberman, of course - another sour old geezer who is despised by everybody in the Democratic Party! It?s a match made in heaven - and here?s why!

• You know how the Clinton-Gore ticket worked, because if you didn't like the one Southern Boomer douchebag you could maybe like the other Southern Boomer douchebag? Same idea here, except you get a twofer on sanctimonious, warmongering coots with gelatinous faces.
• "Second, Lieberman can help him win a critical group essential to McCain's victory: Democrats." AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OOOH AHEM.
• "Adding Lieberman to the ticket could give McCain a shot at [Connecticut's] seven electoral votes, a small but perhaps valuable find in a close election year. At the very least, Obama might have to spend some resources to hold down a traditionally blue state." In other words, McCain will clevely bankrupt the Obama campaign by forcing them to spend $200 million holding onto Connecticut's crucial 7 electoral votes.
• Lieberman exudes a "soothing, calm, and reassuring persona" which make people think John McCain isn't an angry, delusional nutball.

McCain-Lieberman '08! It would be magical.

[CookyPuss]

McCain could have a conflict brewing - Los Angeles Times

The involvement of McCain's family in federal regulatory issues could create a conflict of interest for a future McCain administration, according to advocacy groups and political analysts. McCain has recused himself for many years on alcohol issues in the Senate. As president, however, McCain would face far more difficulty distancing himself from an issue with such broad scope.

Well, we have an oil man in the White House and we saw what happened to the price of gas... just sayin'. If I'm going to be paying $5 a gallon for gas, I sure as hell am going to need cheap beer.

[Best Buckeye]

I have to laugh at anyone who thinks any president is going to hold down or lower prices.

[Gatorubet]

posted on a blog:

McCain's real military file is unflattering. To end all the speculation, McCain should authorize the Navy to release all his military record. In June 2005, seven months after he lost his bid for president, Senator John Kerry signed the 180 waiver, authorizing the release of his complete military service record to the Boston Globe, the Los Angeles Times, and the Associated Press. ** Unlike Kerry, McCain shouldn't wait until after the election to do so. The Navy may claim that it already released McCain's record to the Associated Press on May 7, 2008 in response to the AP's Freedom of Information Act request. But the McCain file the Navy released contained 19 pages -- a two-page overview and 17 pages detailing Awards and Decorations. Each of these 17 pages is stamped with a number. These numbers range from 0069 to 0636. When arranged in ascending order, they precisely track the chronology of McCain's career. It seems reasonable to ask the Navy whether there are at least 636 pages in McCain's file, of which 617 weren't released to the Associated Press.

Some of the unreleased pages in McCain's Navy file may not reflect well upon his qualifications for the presidency. From day one in the Navy, McCain screwed-up again and again, only to be forgiven because his father and grandfather were four-star admirals. McCain's sense of entitlement to privileged treatment bears an eerie resemblance to George W. Bush's. Despite graduating in the bottom 1 percent of his Annapolis class, McCain was offered the most sought-after Navy assignment -- to become an aircraft carrier pilot. According to military historian John Karaagac, "'the Airdales,' the air wing of the Navy, acted and still do, as if unrivaled atop the naval pyramid. They acted as if they owned, not only the Navy, but the entire swath of blue water on the earth's surface." The most accomplished midshipmen compete furiously for the few carrier pilot openings. After four abysmal academic years at Annapolis distinguished only by his misdeeds and malfeasance, no one with a record resembling McCain's would have been offered such a prized career path. The justification for this and subsequent plum assignments should be documented in McCain's naval file. McCain's file should also include records and analytic reviews of McCain's subsequent sub-par performances.

Here are a few cited in two highly favorable biographies, both titled John McCain, one by Robert Timberg and the other by John Karaagac.
Timberg:
"[A]fter a European fling with the tobacco heiress, John McCain reported to flight school at Pensacola in August 1958.... [H]is performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it. What he loved was the kick-the-tire, start-the-fire, scarf-in-the-wind life of a naval aviator. ...One Saturday morning, as McCain was practicing landings, his engine quit and his plane plunged into Corpus Christi. Knocked unconscious by the impact, he came to as the plane settled to the bottom... McCain was an adequate pilot, but he had no patience for studying dry aviation manuals.... His professional growth, though reasonably steady, had its troubled moments. Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula, he took out some power lines, which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral.... [In 1965] he flew a trainer solo to Philadelphia for the Army-Navy game. Flying by way of Norfolk, he had just begun his descent over unpopulated tidal terrain when the engine died. 'I've got a flameout,' he radioed. He went through the standard relight procedures three times. At one thousand feet he ejected, landing on the deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees."

Adds Karaagac:
"In his memoir, everything becomes a kind of game of adolescent brinksmanship, how much can one press the limits of the acceptable and elude the powers that be....The [fighter jocks'] ethos of exaggerated, almost aggressive sociability becomes an end in itself and an excuse for license. There is a tendency for people, not simply to believe their own mythology but, indeed, to exaggerate it.... Fighter jocks, like politicians around their campaign contributions, often press the limits of the acceptable. It is a type of mild corruption that takes place in a highly privileged atmosphere, where restraints are loosened and excuses made.... McCain gives some hint in his memoirs about where he stood in the hierarchy among carrier flyers. Instead of the sleek and newer Phantoms and Crusaders, McCain flew the dependable Douglas A-4 Skyhawk in an attack, not a fighter squadron. He was thus on the lower end of the flying totem pole."

The genius of McCain's mythmaking is his perceived humility amid perpetual defiance. Having been a rebel without cause, and often a rebel without consequences, McCain apparently was not surprised when his Vietnamese captors went relatively easy on him compared to his fellow POWs. The Vietnamese military secretly and frequently filmed the American POWs to learn their propensities. Col. Pham Van Hoa of the Vietnamese People's Army Film Department was in charge of the filming. Asked recently for his dominant impression of McCain, the now-retired Van Hoa said that McCain "seemed superior to other prisoners." How so? "Superior in attitude towards them."

But when Mark Salter, McCain's closest aide and co-author, was asked by the Arizona New Times about the first McCain memoir, Faith of My Fathers, that he was then working on, Salter said "the book will showcase a humble McCain. When I worked on this book with him, he just kept saying, 'Other guys had it a lot worse. I think they took it easier on me because of who my dad was. . . . When they tied me in ropes, they'd roll my sleeve up to give it a little padding between the rope and my bicep, you know, little things I noticed. The only really hard time I had was when I didn't go home, and then it only lasted a week, and sometimes I felt braver, I felt I could get away with more.'"

Is McCain now getting away with more by hiding his official history and by having his national security adviser inflate McCain's resume with a bogus promotion to admiral humbly declined? If so, McCain may be attempting to hide why the Navy was in fact slow to promote him upwards despite his suffering as a POW and his distinguished naval heritage.

One possible reason: After McCain had returned from Vietnam as a war hero and was physically rehabilitated, he was urged by his medical caretakers and military colleagues never to fly again. But McCain insisted on going up. As Carl Bernstein reported in Vanity Fair, he piloted an ultra-light, single propeller plane -- and crashed another time. His fifth loss of a plane has vanished from public records, but should be a subject of discussion in his Navy file. It wouldn't be surprising if his naval superiors worried that McCain was just too defiant, too reckless and too crash prone.

Regardless, McCain owes it to the country to release his complete naval records so that American voters can see his documented history and make an informed decision.

( I make to comment on veracity. But interesting if true. )

[AKAKBUCK]

Oh, and the swiftboating predictabley begins.

[Flocka]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

posted on a blog:

McCain's real military file is unflattering. To end all the speculation, McCain should authorize the Navy to release all his military record. In June 2005, seven months after he lost his bid for president, Senator John Kerry signed the 180 waiver, authorizing the release of his complete military service record to the Boston Globe, the Los Angeles Times, and the Associated Press. ** Unlike Kerry, McCain shouldn't wait until after the election to do so. The Navy may claim that it already released McCain's record to the Associated Press on May 7, 2008 in response to the AP's Freedom of Information Act request. But the McCain file the Navy released contained 19 pages -- a two-page overview and 17 pages detailing Awards and Decorations. Each of these 17 pages is stamped with a number. These numbers range from 0069 to 0636. When arranged in ascending order, they precisely track the chronology of McCain's career. It seems reasonable to ask the Navy whether there are at least 636 pages in McCain's file, of which 617 weren't released to the Associated Press.

Some of the unreleased pages in McCain's Navy file may not reflect well upon his qualifications for the presidency. From day one in the Navy, McCain screwed-up again and again, only to be forgiven because his father and grandfather were four-star admirals. McCain's sense of entitlement to privileged treatment bears an eerie resemblance to George W. Bush's. Despite graduating in the bottom 1 percent of his Annapolis class, McCain was offered the most sought-after Navy assignment -- to become an aircraft carrier pilot. According to military historian John Karaagac, "'the Airdales,' the air wing of the Navy, acted and still do, as if unrivaled atop the naval pyramid. They acted as if they owned, not only the Navy, but the entire swath of blue water on the earth's surface." The most accomplished midshipmen compete furiously for the few carrier pilot openings. After four abysmal academic years at Annapolis distinguished only by his misdeeds and malfeasance, no one with a record resembling McCain's would have been offered such a prized career path. The justification for this and subsequent plum assignments should be documented in McCain's naval file. McCain's file should also include records and analytic reviews of McCain's subsequent sub-par performances.

Here are a few cited in two highly favorable biographies, both titled John McCain, one by Robert Timberg and the other by John Karaagac.
Timberg:
"[A]fter a European fling with the tobacco heiress, John McCain reported to flight school at Pensacola in August 1958.... [H]is performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it. What he loved was the kick-the-tire, start-the-fire, scarf-in-the-wind life of a naval aviator. ...One Saturday morning, as McCain was practicing landings, his engine quit and his plane plunged into Corpus Christi. Knocked unconscious by the impact, he came to as the plane settled to the bottom... McCain was an adequate pilot, but he had no patience for studying dry aviation manuals.... His professional growth, though reasonably steady, had its troubled moments. Flying too low over the Iberian Peninsula, he took out some power lines, which led to a spate of newspaper stories in which he was predictably identified as the son of an admiral.... [In 1965] he flew a trainer solo to Philadelphia for the Army-Navy game. Flying by way of Norfolk, he had just begun his descent over unpopulated tidal terrain when the engine died. 'I've got a flameout,' he radioed. He went through the standard relight procedures three times. At one thousand feet he ejected, landing on the deserted beach moments before the plane slammed into a clump of trees."

Adds Karaagac:
"In his memoir, everything becomes a kind of game of adolescent brinksmanship, how much can one press the limits of the acceptable and elude the powers that be....The [fighter jocks'] ethos of exaggerated, almost aggressive sociability becomes an end in itself and an excuse for license. There is a tendency for people, not simply to believe their own mythology but, indeed, to exaggerate it.... Fighter jocks, like politicians around their campaign contributions, often press the limits of the acceptable. It is a type of mild corruption that takes place in a highly privileged atmosphere, where restraints are loosened and excuses made.... McCain gives some hint in his memoirs about where he stood in the hierarchy among carrier flyers. Instead of the sleek and newer Phantoms and Crusaders, McCain flew the dependable Douglas A-4 Skyhawk in an attack, not a fighter squadron. He was thus on the lower end of the flying totem pole."

The genius of McCain's mythmaking is his perceived humility amid perpetual defiance. Having been a rebel without cause, and often a rebel without consequences, McCain apparently was not surprised when his Vietnamese captors went relatively easy on him compared to his fellow POWs. The Vietnamese military secretly and frequently filmed the American POWs to learn their propensities. Col. Pham Van Hoa of the Vietnamese People's Army Film Department was in charge of the filming. Asked recently for his dominant impression of McCain, the now-retired Van Hoa said that McCain "seemed superior to other prisoners." How so? "Superior in attitude towards them."

But when Mark Salter, McCain's closest aide and co-author, was asked by the Arizona New Times about the first McCain memoir, Faith of My Fathers, that he was then working on, Salter said "the book will showcase a humble McCain. When I worked on this book with him, he just kept saying, 'Other guys had it a lot worse. I think they took it easier on me because of who my dad was. . . . When they tied me in ropes, they'd roll my sleeve up to give it a little padding between the rope and my bicep, you know, little things I noticed. The only really hard time I had was when I didn't go home, and then it only lasted a week, and sometimes I felt braver, I felt I could get away with more.'"

Is McCain now getting away with more by hiding his official history and by having his national security adviser inflate McCain's resume with a bogus promotion to admiral humbly declined? If so, McCain may be attempting to hide why the Navy was in fact slow to promote him upwards despite his suffering as a POW and his distinguished naval heritage.

One possible reason: After McCain had returned from Vietnam as a war hero and was physically rehabilitated, he was urged by his medical caretakers and military colleagues never to fly again. But McCain insisted on going up. As Carl Bernstein reported in Vanity Fair, he piloted an ultra-light, single propeller plane -- and crashed another time. His fifth loss of a plane has vanished from public records, but should be a subject of discussion in his Navy file. It wouldn't be surprising if his naval superiors worried that McCain was just too defiant, too reckless and too crash prone.

Regardless, McCain owes it to the country to release his complete naval records so that American voters can see his documented history and make an informed decision.

( I make to comment on veracity. But interesting if true. )

I didn't know Rush became a liberal.

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by AKAKBUCK

Oh, and the swiftboating predictably begins.

Originally Posted by bigballin2987

I didn't know Rush became a liberal.

I have no idea whether the info is true. I meant to say "I make no comment on the veracity." I don't know a lot about McCain, although I did respect his maverick ways years ago. Like most politicians, his longing for power made him turn his back on his prior positions, in the lean to the left/right for the primaries, lean to the middle once you are the candidate.

Again, I had not heard anything about his service record prior to reading this except that he got shot down and was held prisoner in North Vietnam. Oh. And that he drank baby's blood at black masses. But other than that, I was putting it out there to see if anyone had been able to vet any of this, and to see if this is as accurate as Obama's Koran swearing-in rumors.

Honestly, if his dad and granddad didn't help his career, I would worry about the guy, as any normal dad would try to help his kid some if he could. My dad got me jobs as a union laborer, and I can guarantee that I was not on the top of the list at the union hall in the summer.

Anyway....I think I got this off of the Young Turks site, but it was late, I'd come from the hospital, and I was not operating on all cylinders. Like I normally am

[Flocka]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

I have no idea whether the info is true. I meant to say "I make no comment on the veracity." I don't know a lot about McCain, although I did respect his maverick ways years ago. Like most politicians, his longing for power made him turn his back on his prior positions, in the lean to the left/right for the primaries, lean to the middle once you are the candidate.

Again, I had not heard anything about his service record prior to reading this except that he got shot down and was held prisoner in North Vietnam. Oh. And that he drank baby's blood at black masses. But other than that, I was putting it out there to see if anyone had been able to vet any of this, and to see if this is as accurate as Obama's Koran swearing-in rumors.

Honestly, if his dad and granddad didn't help his career, I would worry about the guy, as any normal dad would try to help his kid some if he could. My dad got me jobs as a union laborer, and I can guarantee that I was not on the top of the list at the union hall in the summer.

Anyway....I think I got this off of the Young Turks site, but it was late, I'd come from the hospital, and I was not operating on all cylinders. Like I normally am

I wasn't referring to you, just the blog you posted. If there was anything to be concerned about, I'm sure it would have popped up somewhere prior to this. It just seems like one of those stupid things someone like Rush would get all worked up about and devote a whole week to.

[CookyPuss]

Originally Posted by bigballin2987

I wasn't referring to you, just the blog you posted. If there was anything to be concerned about, I'm sure it would have popped up somewhere prior to this. It just seems like one of those stupid things someone like Rush would get all worked up about and devote a whole week to.

I'm certain there are many unflattering things in his file. McCain, himself, has admitted he was a screw up and a pain in the ass to his superiors. He admitted at one point that the reason he left the Navy in favor of politics was that it became clear that he would never become a 4 star admiral like his father and grandfather. I seriously doubt that there is a "smoking gun" in his file that would "disqualify" him from the presidency. However, there may be some additional information about his insubordination, confession to his captors, or mental health issues that would prove distracting. With the books he has written and long history in public life, I think we have plenty enough information to judge his fitness for duty as president.

I do see an interesting parallel between him and George W. Bush. Both were the family "screw up" and both had a life-changing experience that led to their future in politics. W had his "born again" experience and recovery from alcoholism, while McCain had his imprisonment in Viet Nam.

['BusNative]

The evolution of John McCain - Jun. 23, 2008

Greatest economic threat... economic...

...turmoil in the markets, oil pushing toward $140 a barrel, gas at more than $4 a gallon, GM shutting down truck plants all over North America, unemployment arching higher than expected. All that was context for the question we posed. But we were asking McCain to rise above the news and look ahead to the day seven months from now when, he hopes, he'll be sitting in the Oval Office. We wanted to know what single economic threat he perceives above all others.

McCain at first says nothing. He sits in the corner of a sofa, one black, tasseled loafer propped against a coffee table. We're in the presidential suite on the 41st floor of the New York Hilton. McCain has come here - between a major speech on the economy in Washington, D.C., this morning and a fundraiser tonight at the 21 Club - to talk to us and to let us take his picture. He is wearing a dark suit, as he almost always does, with a blue shirt and a wine-colored tie. He's looking not at us but into the void. His eyes are narrowed. Nine seconds of silence, ten seconds, 11. Finally he says, "Well, I would think that the absolute gravest threat is the struggle that we're in against radical Islamic extremism, which can affect, if they prevail, our very existence. Another successful attack on the United States of America could have devastating consequences."

Not America's dependence on foreign oil? Not climate change? Not the crushing cost of health care? Eventually McCain gets around to mentioning all three of those. But he starts by deftly turning the economy into a national security issue...

I'm hoping it took so long to give a wrong answer because he was reminiscing about his glory days hanging out at the 21 Club when it was a speakeasy during prohibition.

[brutus2002]

^Unless you have served your country you need not bash McCain on his military record unless you have served yourself...chime in if you actually know what the hell your talking about.

Now that I have that off my chest let me add this election is the biggest [censored]ing joke since the XFL. Talk about interpellation!!!! They are a bunch of clueless millionares that are paid off by lobbyist to screw the american people at will...obviously we like getting cornholed because we continue to allow it to happen. They vote on a war where none of their children even participate. Back when McCain was a young man politicians had their children serve...one member of congress has an enlisted child in the war...1 in 535 is pathetic...I guess its easy to vote on a war when you have nothing at stake except for the exxon mobile stocks your abut to receive millions off divedends...or lobbyist who have interest in millitary contracts who will fill your pocket with campaign money and kickbacks. Both Democrats and Republicans are to blame.

If you actually believe Obama or McCain are gonna do anything for the country please admit yourself into the nearest meth rehab center!!!!

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by brutus2002

^Unless you have served your country you need not bash McCain on his military record unless you have served yourself...chime in if you actually know what the hell your talking about.

The douche nozzle who is our current President served. I did not, as my selective service number of 27 as not called up in 1973 for obvious reasons.

But whether I served or not, it in no way prohibits me from talking about the disaster that is Bush, or, even if I want, to talk about his military record. Last time I looked, this is still America, and the First Amendment still applied. While I honor anyone's service, because of it they are not "better" or "more worthy" citizens than those who did not sign up or were drafted.

Now, I am not a medical doctor, but I still reserve my right to talk [censored] about the mooks who screwed up my son's diagnosis. And last time I checked, YOU can rant about the courts and attorneys all you want. If I told you that you should shut up until you've been in front of a jury before you had a right to an opinion about (fill in the case) you'd be [censored]ed - or at least dumbfounded at the concept.

And here is the deal: I do not have to be a vet to have an opinion on splashing five planes, if it is true. Or do you believe that nobody but vets had a right to bash Kerry? The long list of chicken-hawk conservatives who bashed him, but who had no military service was not something I've heard you complain about. So feel free to say that a lack of military service makes for a less informed opinion about things military. No problem, really, as that has merit in certain contexts. But please don't throw that [censored] about the right to critique a military record belong to some Uber-privileged sub-set of citizen, because that, IMO, is bull[censored]. Anyone here who is an American has a right to an opinion about anything that is just as valid as anyone else's. While any opinion may not be as valid in your eyes, or in fact, there is nothing about anyone's opinion that has to take a step back to you if you are a vet - or makes McCain off limits on that subject.

Now that I have that off my chest let me add this election is the biggest [censored]ing joke since the XFL. Talk about interpolation!!!! They are a bunch of clueless millionaires that are paid off by lobbyist to screw the American people at will...obviously we like getting cornholed because we continue to allow it to happen. They vote on a war where none of their children even participate. Back when McCain was a young man politicians had their children serve...one member of congress has an enlisted child in the war...1 in 535 is pathetic...I guess its easy to vote on a war when you have nothing at stake except for the Exxon mobile stocks your about to receive millions off divedends...or lobbyist who have interest in military contracts who will fill your pocket with campaign money and kickbacks. Both Democrats and Republicans are to blame.

If you actually believe Obama or McCain are gonna do anything for the country please admit yourself into the nearest meth rehab center!!!!

I see that your glass is half empty Brutus.

[Flocka]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

The douche nozzle who is our current President served. I did not, as my selective service number of 27 as not called up in 1973 for obvious reasons.

But whether I served or not, it in no way prohibits me from talking about the disaster that is Bush, or, even if I want, to talk about his military record. Last time I looked, this is still America, and the First Amendment still applied. While I honor anyone's service, because of it they are not "better" or "more worthy" citizens than those who did not sign up or were drafted.

Now, I am not a medical doctor, but I still reserve my right to talk [censored] about the mooks who screwed up my son's diagnosis. And last time I checked, YOU can rant about the courts and attorneys all you want. If I told you that you should shut up until you've been in front of a jury before you had a right to an opinion about (fill in the case) you'd be [censored]ed - or at least dumbfounded at the concept.

And here is the deal: I do not have to be a vet to have an opinion on splashing five planes, if it is true. Or do you believe that nobody but vets had a right to bash Kerry? The long list of chicken-hawk conservatives who bashed him, but who had no military service was not something I've heard you complain about. So feel free to say that a lack of military service makes for a less informed opinion about things military. No problem, really, as that has merit in certain contexts. But please don't throw that [censored] about the right to critique a military record belong to some Uber-privileged sub-set of citizen, because that, IMO, is bull[censored]. Anyone here who is an American has a right to an opinion about anything that is just as valid as anyone else's. While any opinion may not be as valid in your eyes, or in fact, there is nothing about anyone's opinion that has to take a step back to you if you are a vet - or makes McCain off limits on that subject.

He was serious? I thought he just forgot the sarcasm font.