Arizona Senator John McCain (official)

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by bigballin2987

He was serious? I thought he just forgot the sarcasm font.

[censored]! Probably was Big.

I'm in such a foul mood right now that it probably flew over my dim head....

Won't be the last time.....but I feel much better now.

[AKAKBUCK]

And here is the deal: I do not have to be a vet to have an opinion on splashing five planes, if it is true.

Don't let him at the controls of Air Force 1?

[Bucky Katt]

Originally Posted by AKAKBUCK

Don't let him at the controls of Air Force 1?

Or DO let him at the controls of Air Force One?

[AKAKBUCK]

Originally Posted by Bucky Katt

Or DO let him at the controls of Air Force One?

Eh, what's the difference? 6 Crashes? He's made it through 5, what's another one.

Huh, that's actually kind of impressive if you think about it.

Think of him being at a bar....

Biker Guy: "I got this scar from a knife fight in Barstow in '68 and this from wrecking my hog in Sturgis after chugging a quart of Jack Daniels"

Old Mafia Dude: "I got shot by Sam Giancana's crew in the in a gang war."

McCain: "Survived an airplane crash..... FIVE [censored]ing times. John Kennedy Jr. is such a pussy"

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by brutus2002

DON'T COMMENT ON SOMEONES SERVICE IF YOU HAVE NOT SERVED.
Please feel free to bash these douchebags on any issue but please not their military service...especially a guy who won the Congressional Metal of Honor...Whether he deserved it on or not...he was a POW.

Bull[censored]. I'm truly sorry that your friend died. I am trying to imagine the feelings of that circumstance, and your emotions on the issue of a vet's record are likely a response to his sacrifice, and a means of trying to honor him. But his death, no matter how tragic that was, in no way immunizes the class of politicians who have a war record from that record being a topic of conversation. You are making vets into some sort of [censored]ing untouchables who, because of the fact of service, are entitled to better treatment from the press and populace when they run for office than us mere non-military mortals who also walk the earth as U.S. citizens, and it is bull[censored].

McCain throws his service at us in every commercial, and it is a big part of his schtick re: credentials as CIC. He [censored]ing invites inspection of that record when he offers it up as a reason that I should vote for him.

Besides, what if your theory applied to college football? We'd have nothing to talk about in the fall unless we suited up in college.

[sandgk]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

McCain throws his service at us in every commercial, and it is a big part of his schtick re: credentials as CIC. He [censored]ing invites inspection of that record when he offers it up as a reason that I should vote for him.

True that, and if indeed his record is that useful to him politically, then why is McCain not taking the position of releasing his full unredacted military records. At minimum it might help defray concerns that his potential candidacy for Admiral (as floated by a McCain campaign adviser) has not been mythologized, or exaggerated.

Originally Posted by brutus2002

Don't question his service man...Like I said hes a [censored]ing tool and I agree. I don't like the guy. Serving is a positive thing in politics or he wouldn't be using it on every commercial.

Do you think that not examining his service would do a disservice to McCain? And, how can one do that without reasonable disclosure?

(Lest this be misuderstood, I am firmly against the swift-boating that Kerry suffered, and I would be equally opposed to McCain being subjected to a similar campaign in which exaggerations and outright lies were used to re-define the most difficult and challenging experience of his life in uncharitable and untrue terms.)

[generaladm]

Burtus2002, with all due respect to you and other service men and women, if you're looking for someone to blame for scrutinizing veterans service records, you really need to start with Karl Rove. He was the one who masterminded the abomination of a smear campaign against Kerry and, like it or not, that will be the new standard. I don't believe that there will be out and out lies like with Kerry, but really, an assessment of a candidate's military record is nothing new.

Just for the record, saying George W. Bush served in the military is like saying Dan Reuttiger carried ND to a NC. W got in to the Texas Air National Guard thru his dad's influence, forced them to ground him by refusing to take a physical (drug test?), and did not report for months while working on a family friend's political campaign. Rich boy draft dodging.

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by brutus2002

My point is dragging his service through the mud by persons that didn't serve is [censored]ing cowardice on their part.

You are not [censored]ing getting it.

Extreme example. What happened at My Lai. My [censored]ing business, no matter if I served or not. Getting preferential treatment in the service from his dad to [censored] over worthier better officers? Again, something I may want to know about if I have to watch the [censored]ing McCain as War Hero commercials till November, and it is not off-limits to me while you can sit around at the VFW hall and talk about it to your heart's content.

And if I conclude that McCain is an asshole I don't want to vote for because of his military record, I may be wrong, but I am not a [censored]ing coward because I have an opinion, got it?

It simply doesn't work that way man, no matter your thoughts. Let's just respectfully agree to disagree.

[Wingate1217]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

You are not [censored]ing getting it.

Extreme example. What happened at My Lai. My [censored]ing business, no matter if I served or not. Getting preferential treatment in the service from his dad to [censored] over worthier better officers? Again, something I may want to know about if I have to watch the [censored]ing McCain as War Hero commercials till November, and it is not off-limits to me while you can sit around at the VFW hall and talk about it to your heart's content.

And if I conclude that McCain is an asshole I don't want to vote for because of his military record, I may be wrong, but I am not a [censored]ing coward because I have an opinion, got it?

It simply doesn't work that way man, no matter your thoughts. Let's just respectfully agree to disagree.

I don't think you question a man's service nor his patriotism. I am however with gator on questioning one's actions will in the service.
For example, some people conjunctures that the only reason John Kerry went to Vietnam was to booster his resume for a political run. I really don't question his motives because the man served and was over there getting shot at when a lot of us were sitting home (in my case watching Bugs Bunny as I was a kid at the time.)
I don't question McCain's tenure in the military (as long as he didn't do anything dishonorable, and I don't think he did) and I don't care if he crashed a few times. He isn't running for top test pilot but for POTUS, although I might not want him to pilot my plane.....

Is it fair game if he lied (and not his subordinates) regarding his service record or if he knew that he didn't deserve such and such award. (And in no way am I implying that he didn't deserve the CMH.) Yes, it is... However, until someone shows me concrete proof that this happened, I for one am inclined to give the man the benefit of the doubt because in my eyes he deserves it......

[generaladm]

To be realistic, every military man who ran for public office has had their record examined, from DDE to Churchil to freakin Julius Caesar. I'm sure no one on this board wants to see the type of character assassination that Kerry was subject to. McCain's military record will be part of the campaign, both by his choice and by his opponent's (not necessarily Obama). As long as it's done with class, I don't see any problem with it.

Just to lighten the mood, McCain is in Cincy today for a town hall meeting. Even if I wanted to go, I couldn't afford it. But they showed his entrance on the local news and they played "Wild Blue Yonder"! By the same token, on I-75 south, there's a big McCain billboard paid for by a group of West Point graduates. In the bottom corner, but still prominent, it clearly says "Beat Navy!". Doesn't anyone know what branch he was in?

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by Wingate1217

I don't think you question a man's service nor his patriotism.

Or one's patriotism or degree of cowardice simply because someone who does not have a kid in the military has an opinion on a candidate's military service...at least not after the Kerry ordeal.

It is very much on the table now, much like a candidate's sexual improprieties are after the Gary Hart scandal made it a public issue in future campaigns.

[brutus2002]

Now gator is twisting my point...I am honorably discharged...I followed the rules...When I say don't critque a veterans service I mean honorable dischrge. You can bring up instances and this and that...What the soldiers did to those Iraqi prisoners was wrong and warrants criricism...they were obviously put in the brig/federal prison and deserve dishonorable discharge.

I have a question gator...I wonder what you would do?

Your a farm boy from the midwest and join the Marines. You are at a remote outpost where you are a security force for checkpoint. You have never been anywhere in your life except bootcamp and Iraq. You are 18-19 years old.

You know your general unders...Your special orders are to guard this post and stop every vehicle for inspection...You are not supposed to fire unless fired upon or feel you are in a position where you should use deadly force(obviously these orders are very vague). these are the only orders you are given and you have 2 persons in your chain of command on site and that is LCpl and Cpl (19 & 20 years of age respectively). The sergeant of the guard and the OOD stop by every 12 hours with your shift replacements. YoU are a PFC...PFC mean Private First Class or Pretty [censored]ing Clueless as us NCO's used to say

One day a car loaded with children and one man are speeding towards you...the checkpoint is labeled by a billboard instructing civilians to stop for the inspection. The car is at high speeds heading directly for your position the other marines are yelling "stop" in arabic to the vehicle in a megaphone...its gradually getting closer and has not slowed it is obvious the driver can read the sign. You are worried it may be a car bomb and so do the other marines...you have three options and all three really [censored]ing suck. Pretty tough decision for 3 18-20 years to make in a matter of 20-30 seconds.

What would you do Gator????????

Like I said carry a rifle before you open your trap. If someone is honorably discharged and you are criticizing them grow some balls and join,

[CookyPuss]

YouTube - Project Make McCain Exciting: Gray...

From Colbert's green screen challenge.

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by brutus2002

Now gator is twisting my point...
Like I said carry a rifle before you open your trap. If someone is honorably discharged and you are criticizing them grow some balls and join,

I dunno man, how am I twisting it if you keep making the same ludicrous point?

As to your question, what would I do? Knowing me, I would have a hard time pulling the trigger on a car full of kids, and so I suppose I would let my buddies down if it turned out to be a bomber. Had I watched my buddies die in a prior bombing, I guess I might have sprayed the car and dealt with the horrible aftermath of killing kids because the dad was stupid.

But as the greater point we were talking about is not that specific situation, but the entire gamut of what constitutes a military career or service record, your attempt to say that any comment by a non-military member about a military member being off limits seems to me to be stupendously wrong headed.

Your designation for non-military service citizens who retain for themselves the right to scrutinize and potentially criticize the military service record of veteran political candidates, i.e., "cowards", includes me, as I reserve to myself that right.

I assume that your thinking on that subject is the product of your experience in Iraq. I'm sorry for that.

I can only point out that you swore an oath when you signed up, and you swore to protect and defend the Constitution and the First Amendment contained in it. Your recruiter or instructors would have told you if there was an exception to that oath when you took it. Assuming they did not, then you should consider that maybe the right of citizens to their First Amendment privileges cannot be abrogated by farm boys from the Midwest, even if put in difficult positions by the politicians in Washington, and that others do indeed have a right to open their trap, even when it seems unfair to you.

[BuckeyeSoldier]

brutus, I just wanna make sure I've got your point correctly before I comment in this thread. Are you saying:

A) No civilian should speak negatively about things someone else did while they were in service even if those things are clearly morally corrupt, disloyal, idiotic or otherwise unflattering as long as they weren't dishonorably discharged for said offense.

or

B) No civilian should speak negatively about that commitment and patriotism that it takes to serve your country and fight for the enjoyed freedoms regardless of harm that may or may not befall yourself.