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Political Conversation and Debate This forum is not a temporary one. It will exist up to, and after the presidential elections. Some people want to talk or even argue politics, other's don't. Let's see if we can apply some reason and understanding to the debate.

 
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  #316 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 01:59 AM
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I am almost positive that he means B.

But even then I do not agree. The First Amendment includes even assholes and ingrates being given a right to speak on all topics, no matter how unsavory or unpopular.

I see his point. I think I'd feel the exact same way he does if I had served with him under those conditions. But then, I'd be wrong, even if the reason I thought that made perfect sense given the circumstances.

We have a civil government, and the military is subservient to it, no matter how frustrating it may seem to those who have served for an ungrateful country. The citizens control that civil government through the ballot box, and service in the military does not modify - either lessen or greaten - the rights of citizens to speak out about any aspect of a candidate's life or qualifications.

It really is that simple.
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  #317 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 10:51 AM
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Yes I mean B...Don't ridicule their service. It is really hard to talk about the military with indiciduals that have not served. IMO Gator and I are maybe arguing apples and oranges. He thinks I mean you cannot say anything bad about a vet no matter what they do...What I mean is don't question the service the of an honorably discharged servicemember. I have seen douchebags do stupid stuff and deserve everything they get. The scenario I posted above really happened. It is easy to make the wrong decision. In situations like that any decision you make comes with a price.

Like I said I'm not a John McCain fan by any stretch. I respect his service and it is unquestioned. I would not be suprised if he had some dirty laundry while he served...heck most servicemen have at least 1 NJP(NON-JUDICIAL PUNISHMENT). It can be confusing sometimes for young men while they serve. I'm proud of our militray and love them all. They make mistakes but their overall service is a blessing to the citizens of the United States. We have young men and women that are willing to sacrifice everything so we can have arguments like these. I hope Gator realizes we are probably arguing apples and oranges. I apologize to Gator for being uncivil at times...I'm sorry. Gator you are no less american than me just because I have served and you have not. I'm sure you have paid alot in taxes over your life...
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  #318 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 10:54 AM
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Let me sum up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus2002 View Post
^Unless you have served your country you need not bash McCain on his military record unless you have served yourself...chime in if you actually know what the hell your talking about.
1. Do not bash his record unless you have served

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus2002 View Post
DON'T COMMENT ON SOMEONES SERVICE IF YOU HAVE NOT SERVED. At least the guys suited up!!! Protest the politicians that start wars not the soldiers getting shrapnel in the ass...don't question John McCains military service...I think he is an ass hat but he is a veteran and from that aspect I respect him.

Please feel free to bash these douchebags on any issue but please not their military service...especially a guy who won the Congressional Metal of Honor...Whether he deserved it on or not...he was a POW.
2. Don't comment on one's service unless you have served.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus2002 View Post
Don't question his service man...Like I said hes a [censored]ing tool and I agree. I don't like the guy. Serving is a positive thing in politics or he wouldn't be using it on every commercial. What the [censored] has Obama done!!! Jack [censored]ing [censored]...Neither candidate is worth a damn but don't bash his service. Some people have the balls to serve while other question and bash the one that do...bash him as a politician not as a soldiers. He sucks as a politician enough to get alot of dirty laundry on him there.

If your gonna bash the service of men just go to arlington and start [censored]ing on graves.

Bash that asshat anyway you want but from a veterans perspective leave the military service alone. He did go through OCS and was a POW.
3. Don't bash his service. Bashing his service is like [censored]ing on a grave in Arlington. Which is apparently an okay thing to do as long as you served in the military?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus2002 View Post
^ When I say don't question his service I don't mean his literal record or SRB (Service Record Booklet). The man went through OCS, fought during time of war, and won the Congressional Medal of Honor (CMH). The CMH is the highest award given to servicemembers. Whether he deserved it or not is moot. The man served his country and was a POW...THATS A FACT...that warrants a certain amount of respect because of his sacrifice. Now all this other [censored] of digging through his military record is all politics to discredit his service...hell the [censored] may be true. It doesn't matter because all servicemen have a run in or two while they are in the service...we are human. My point is dragging his service through the mud by persons that didn't serve is [censored]ing cowardice on their part. Most of these articles and expose are written by fatass pussies that would never sacrifice [censored] for their country...

Gator has the right to say or write whatever he wants. I don't want him to stop...but bashing McCain's service or questioning his patriotism is downright silly.
It's okay to question what he did while he was in the service, but don't question the fact that he did serve. And don't question his patriotism. (I haven't seen anybody do either of the latter.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus2002 View Post
Now gator is twisting my point...I am honorably discharged...I followed the rules...When I say don't critque a veterans service I mean honorable dischrge. You can bring up instances and this and that...What the soldiers did to those Iraqi prisoners was wrong and warrants criricism...they were obviously put in the brig/federal prison and deserve dishonorable discharge.
.
.
.
Like I said carry a rifle before you open your trap. If someone is honorably discharged and you are criticizing them grow some balls and join,
Twisting your point? You never said anything about discharges prior to this post. You keep changing what it is that you don't want Gator to post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus2002 View Post
First, I said honorable discharge. Second,I said don't ridicule their service thats different than ridiculing what they did while they served (SRB). I know I'm not elloquent but please learn to read...its a lost art on these boards. I guess since you haven't served you will not understand what I mean. Obviously you don't know what a honorable discharge is or a SRB.

I guess it boils down to who's liberal and who conservative...screw it I'm an american [censored] the other two choices.
Nobody here has ridiculed or mocked John McCain for serving his country. I haven't seen anyone suggest that he is anything other than patriotic.

As you have pointed out, examining his service record is very different from those other actions. As far as I can tell, that's all anybody here is even interested in doing.
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  #319 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus2002 View Post
Yes I mean B...Don't ridicule their service. It is really hard to talk about the military with individuals that have not served. IMO Gator and I are maybe arguing apples and oranges. He thinks I mean you cannot say anything bad about a vet no matter what they do...What I mean is don't question the service the of an honorably discharged service member.
Actually, I am not misunderstanding you at all. I mean, I have no problem with our disagreeing until the day we die. It's just that I think that one can absolutely question the service of an honorably discharged veteran. That service does not protect a man or woman from such questions at all, nor do the questioners have to be veterans to have that right to question them.

Don't get me wrong, the questioners could very likely be wrong headed ingrate assholes. Doesn't matter. I think that you can find some comfort in the fact that very few people will like the persons doing the questioning of a vet's record if there is nothing there, and most, like you, will find it offensive to question an honorably discharged vet in the first place. In fact, it looks like a PR disaster in the making.

My single endlessly repeated, mind-numbing point is that military service, although honored, creates no special class or rights as it relates to the right of anybody to speak about that service. But what will happen is that the court of public opinion will bring a harsh sentence on the person who attacks that vet's record if it is nothing more than an attack.

Freedom of Speech is not Freedom From Stupid, Ungrateful speech. With the right you take the bad, and the bad includes the possibility that nut-jobs get to march through town wearing Nazi uniforms, even if my dad fought Nazis and my uncle was paralyzed by shrapnel from SS artillery. Or the bad may be having to listen to guys in white hoods say that someone's race is inferior.

Hell of a thing, Free Speech. To work as good as it does, you have to take the bad. Like training for Freedom, if you will. When you train, it might make you ill as you train or run to your maximum limit. But throwing up and feeling bad is temporary, and the benefit of being trained fit and healthy is a far more valuable thing than the temporary unpleasantness.

Enjoying your Free Speech Right - that you fought for - is far more satisfying than any temporary pain in hearing some guy criticizing a vet. That is where YOUR right of free speech comes in and you join your buddies is saying the same things you have said (with the exception of saying that they have no right to say what they said because the were not a vet).

I'll likely be on a bar stool here agreeing with you.

Hell, we are close to agreeing.
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  #320 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky Katt View Post
As you have pointed out, examining his service record is very different from those other actions. As far as I can tell, that's all anybody here is even interested in doing.
Especially when we are considering him to be the face of our nation and our top public servant. To not examine his service and the other facets of his career would be irresponsible.
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  #321 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 07:19 PM
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Is it just me, or is McCain running as a democrat? All of his ads that I've seen call for health insurance for all americans, environmantally progressive policies, creating jobs, and easing the tax burden on average citizens. What a bleeding-heart crackpot! Where is the touting of trickle down economics? Where are the major issues like gay marraige and stem cell research? What happened to the Republican Party that I used to know and love?
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Old 06-27-2008, 07:52 PM
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If you believe we are not to question the service of a honorably discharged serviceman and his/her commitment to country, then do you also believe we should not question a minister/priest and his/her commitment to God who has not been defrocked?

I'm not necessarily directing this question at brutus2002, but it seems the same crowd who say you cannot question McCain's service had no problem assailing Obama's pastor based on a few choice quotes, who (last I checked) is still in good standing with a mainline denomination.

On another tangent, I think it is quite different to examine one's service record to see what we can learn and to trash that record (as what happened to John Kerry). For example, here is an article that looks into his War College thesis: McCain's homework - Los Angeles Times

With the considerable amount of information available on his military service, including his own book, I think it is fair to ask what we haven't seen to at least look at the full picture.

One of the latest arguments of the McCain camp is that he will always put country over self interest. They cite his refusal to take early release because it would provide propaganda for the North Vietnamese. However, they ignore his confession to war crimes that did provide propaganda:

Quote:
On the third night, as McCain would later write in "Faith of My Fathers," he was beaten so badly he almost committed suicide before "confessing" his war crimes:
I lay in my own blood and waste, so tired and hurt that I could not move. The Prick [another captor] came in with two other guards, lifted me to my feet, and gave me the worst beating I had yet experienced ... Despairing of any relief from pain and further torture, and fearing the close reproach of my moment of dishonor, I tried to take my life. I doubt I really intended to kill myself. But I couldn't fight anymore, and I remember deciding that the last thing I could do to make them believe I was still resisting, that I wouldn't break, was to attempt suicide.
McCain took off his shirt. He turned over the waste bucket and stepped on it. He looped his shirt through a shutter. But before he could act, the Prick ran in and beat him up.
One day later, McCain signed a confession admitting to war crimes. He would remain a POW for almost five more years, until March 15, 1973. His injuries are still with him; he cannot raise his arms above his shoulders; he still has a slight limp.
Salon Politics2000 | McCain goes back

Now, I do not fault him for his "confession." I'd bet almost anyone would have done the same under those circumstances. However, I find it disingenuous for his campaign to imply that Obama lacks his level of patriotism because he did not have to go through such an experience. Again, I don't want to disparage McCain's service and I don't think this should. I simply don't think he can use his service to somehow "prove" he is some ultra patriotic figure who will defend his country at any cost, when we know that he did have a breaking point (as most all of us do).
Last edited by CookyPuss; 06-28-2008 at 11:14 AM.
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  #323 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by generaladm View Post
What happened to the Republican Party that I used to know and love?
They [censored]ed up their own brand.
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  #324 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 08:47 PM
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True. Although, in my lifetime, it's all I've seen from them. What they should have done was rake Nixon over the coals and expose how deep the corruption ran. If they had done that, half of the cast of characters in the Reagan/Bush empire would be exiled from D.C. forever. People say that the Ford pardon was for the purpose of allowing the country to heal. In reality, it just left the door open for years of corruption in the federal government.
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  #325 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuckFich06 View Post
Now, I do not fault him for his "confession." I'd bet almost anyone would have done the same under those circumstances. However, I find it disingenuous for his campaign to imply that Obama lacks his level of patriotism because he did not have to go through such an experience. Again, I don't want to disparage McCain's service and I don't think this should. I simply don't think he can use his service to somehow "prove" he is some ultra patriotic figure who will defend his country at any cost, when we know that he did have a breaking point (as most all of us do).
I think you are Taos if he never found pot.

edit: or acid
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  #326 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigballin2987 View Post
I think you are Taos if he never found pot.

edit: or acid
edit: or peyote
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  #327 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2008, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandgk View Post
edit: or peyote
Touche.
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  #328 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2008, 12:00 AM
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If I'm not mistaken John McCain and Hillary Clinton have voted almost identical over the last several years. I think the reason the republicans keep him around is because he is a guaranteed seat in the senate. If he was weaker in political power they would have washed their hands of him a long time ago. Some of his platforms are definately in line with the democrats.
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  #329 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2008, 12:19 AM
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I had a lot more respect for McCain before W got in office. I've just seen him do an about face too many times. It was painfully obvious that he was told to step in line. There was a hillarious TV Funhouse Fun With Real Audio on SNL with McCain giving a pro-W speech, it's not on youtube, I'll post if I can find it.
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Old 06-28-2008, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brutus2002 View Post
If I'm not mistaken John McCain and Hillary Clinton have voted almost identical over the last several years.
You're mistaken.

Project Vote Smart - Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton - Voting Record

Project Vote Smart - Senator John Sidney McCain III - Voting Record

I have no clue why so many right-wingers see McCain as being something other than conservative, because he is pretty much down-the-line conservative. The fact that Rush Limbaugh doesn't care for him probably has something to do with it. That, and the fact McCain doesn't trot out a Bible every time he has a news conference.
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