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Political Conversation and Debate This forum is not a temporary one. It will exist up to, and after the presidential elections. Some people want to talk or even argue politics, other's don't. Let's see if we can apply some reason and understanding to the debate.

 
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Old 08-11-2004, 02:22 PM
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For those who were upset that Kerry didn't ID a plan

during his Convention speech -

Looking Backward
On the stump, Bush sells his first term, not his second.
By Chris Suellentrop
Posted Wednesday, Aug. 4, 2004, at 10:18 PM PT


MANKATO, Minn.—After watching President Bush speak for only a couple of hours on the 2004 stump, it's easy to see the main tenets of his re-election campaign: My opponent is un-American, or at least less American than me and you. My opponent, much like Al Gore, doesn't know who he is. My opponent is a tax-hiking, big-government liberal. Worse, he wants to ask other countries for permission for America to defend itself against its enemies. Last, and most important, my wife is better than his wife.

What you don't hear from President Bush's stump speech, or from his surrogates, is what he plans to do were he given another four years as president. The problem is particularly glaring on matters of foreign policy. There are glimmers of a domestic agenda in the president's two campaign events Wednesday: He wants to reform America's high schools, increase math and science education, and increase the use of the Internet in schools. He wants more ethanol subsidies. He wants to make health care more available and affordable. He wants less regulation. He likes community colleges. He wants workers to be able to acquire flex time and comp time in lieu of overtime pay.

Bush also gives his audiences a rehash of the greatest hits from his 2000 campaign mantras. He likes tort reform and dislikes "frivolous lawsuits." (A favorite line of Bush crowds: "You cannot be pro-patient and pro-doctor and pro-trial lawyer at the same time. You have to choose. My opponent made his choice, and he put him on the ticket.") He wants private Social Security accounts for younger workers. He likes marriage and the family, which always gets him a big cheer, because what it really means is he's against gay marriage. He's for a "culture of life," "judges who faithfully interpret the law instead of legislating from the bench," and a "culture of responsibility." Not to mention the responsibility society and the ownership society. He's still against the soft bigotry of low expectations. And of course, he wants everyone to love their neighbor just like you'd like to be loved yourself.

Bush doesn't talk much about the future. He talks about the past. The biggest portions of Bush's speech are spent mounting a vigorous defense of his presidency. When Bush's campaign foundered in New Hampshire four years ago, he retooled his strategy in response to John McCain and began billing himself as a "reformer with results." He's not using that slogan yet, but the rhetoric is similar. "It's not enough to advocate reform," he says. "You have to be able to get it done." The closing section of his speech ends with the mantra, "Results matter." On education, health care, the economy, farms, and security, Bush concludes by saying, "Results matter." Of his Medicare prescription drug benefit, Bush says, "Leaders in both political parties had promised prescription drug coverage for years. We got the job done."

Bush spends the longest amount of time defending his policies after Sept. 11. He takes credit for the creation of the Homeland Security Department (one of those things that Bush voted against before he voted for it), and he takes pride in the Patriot Act. Afghanistan has gone from being the "home base of al-Qaida" to being a "rising democracy." Pakistan, once a "safe transit point for terrorists," is now an ally. Saudi Arabia, he says, "is taking the fight to al-Qaida." Libya has given up its quest for weapons of mass destruction.

Most of all, Bush defends the war in Iraq. He repeats the litany of reasons for going to war: Saddam was defying the will of the United Nations, he harbored terrorists, he funded suicide bombers, he used weapons of mass destruction against his own people. "In other words, we saw a threat," Bush says. "Members of the United States Congress from both political parties, including my opponent, looked at the intelligence and came to the same conclusion."

What Bush doesn't acknowledge is what went wrong: The WMD were never found. We weren't welcomed as liberators. Oil revenues haven't paid for the war. It wasn't a cakewalk. What went wrong? Why? Given four more years, what does Bush plan to do about it? He hasn't told us yet, other than suggesting "more of the same."

"Every incumbent who asks for your vote has got to answer one central question, and that's 'Why?'" Bush says. "Why should the American people give me the high privilege of serving as your president for four more years?" The answer Bush gives to that question is his record. He says he deserves re-election because of what he has already done. At Wednesday's first event, in Davenport, Iowa, U.S. Rep. Jim Nussle embodies this attitude when he introduces Bush to the crowd. "There is no one I would have wanted to be at the helm of this country these last four years than you," Nussle says.

Bush and Nussle are asking the wrong question. The real question an incumbent faces is, what now? What's next? So far, Bush isn't telling. A president's record matters, but the reason it matters is because it has predictive value. Bush's defenders say he is a transformational figure, that he's willing to take on big problems and challenges. Wouldn't you like to know what Bush believes those big problems and challenges would be in foreign policy over the next four years? Are there gathering threats that, like Iraq, he thinks need to be tackled "before they materialize"? The president says that is the lesson of Sept. 11, that the nation must confront its security problems pre-emptively. Where else does he plan to apply that lesson? Does he plan to tell us?

After the 2002 midterm elections, when Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill objected to another round of tax cuts for the rich, Vice President Cheney told O'Neill to discard his worries. We won the midterm elections, Cheney said. "This is our due." As much as liberals dislike President Bush's record over the past four years, it's the prospect of another four years that terrifies them. What they want to know—what keeps them awake at night—is what President Bush hasn't answered yet: What are you going to do next? This time, what will be your due?

http://www.slate.com/id/2104773/#ContinueArticle

As I suspected would be the case, neither candidate is at all interested in identifying a plan to do anything.... Of course, Dubya gets a chance to change this perception at the convention... I don't know if he'll use his stump speech or not... My guess is he will, more or less.

"My opponent is un-American, or at least less American than me and you. My opponent, much like Al Gore, doesn't know who he is. My opponent is a tax-hiking, big-government liberal. Worse, he wants to ask other countries for permission for America to defend itself against its enemies. Last, and most important, my wife is better than his wife."

Classic politics in America these days... God, I wish people weren't stupid enough to vote based on this information alone... But, I'm affraid it's all it takes (And, conversely, to the extend that Kerry's campaign is simply "Dubya's a bad bad guy" it's the same thing)
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Old 08-11-2004, 04:17 PM
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bkb:

Quote:
My opponent is un-American, or at least less American than me and you. My opponent, much like Al Gore, doesn't know who he is. My opponent is a tax-hiking, big-government liberal. Worse, he wants to ask other countries for permission for America to defend itself against its enemies. Last, and most important, my wife is better than his wife.
Which part is wrong about Kerry? Tell me different.

Quote:
Bush doesn't talk much about the future. He talks about the past.
Are you kidding me? Uhhhh, what does Kerry have to go on besides his Vietnam experience? Funny how he never brings up his voting record.

Quote:
Most of all, Bush defends the war in Iraq.
Didn't Kerry and Saint Bill Clinton basically defend the Bush doctrine for war or was that two positions ago for Kerry?

Quote:
The real question an incumbent faces is, what now? What's next?
Did this guy miss the proposal for a flat tax or the proposal to fix social security by privatizing it?

There are so many issues to poke holes in in this article. I just don't buy it. I mean how is Kerry going to fundamentally change America? He's already said raise taxes on the rich, include France in our decision to protect ourselves and oh yeah, free heathcare for all. And oh yeah he's going to balance the budget with all of the proposed soup kitchen diplomacy. Yeah right. Somebody show me how.
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Old 08-11-2004, 05:45 PM
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Ekeen - It's not my story, bro.. it's a link to slate... ask them...


I wil say this, however, where you say:

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">
My opponent is un-American, or at least less American than me and you. My opponent, much like Al Gore, doesn't know who he is. My opponent is a tax-hiking, big-government liberal. Worse, he wants to ask other countries for permission for America to defend itself against its enemies. Last, and most important, my wife is better than his wife.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Which part is wrong about Kerry? Tell me different.

Un-american - I'm sure he's a citizen of the US, for one.. for another, people generallly don't run for President if they hate the country.. they tend to build bomb in their basement or write manifestos and such..
"Doesn't know who he is" - I dont know the man, but I think he's well passed the "identity " stage of psychological development.. I don't care if you like the guy, but to suggest he doesn't know who he is patently absurd. YOu may not know who he is.. Bush may not.. but he does.
"Tax hiking big gov. liberal... " Hmmm... this coming from the guy who amassed a 445 billion dollar deficit?
"He wants to ask other countries permission" - Except that he said the exact opposite in his Dem. Nat. Conv. speech.

Believe what you want to, I can't "prove" otherwise, but your assertion is nothing more than rhetoric without actual intellectual value... the people of this board deserve more than such glib assertions. It's a matter of respect for people's intelligence. (sorry if that sounds like a "personal attack" that's not my intention)

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">
Bush doesn't talk much about the future. He talks about the past.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Are you kidding me? Uhhhh, what does Kerry have to go on besides his Vietnam experience? Funny how he never brings up his voting record.

The article wasn't comparing and contrasting... the article's sole purpose was to review Dubya's stump speech... The author didn't claim Kerry doesn't have similar problems.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Most of all, Bush defends the war in Iraq. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Didn't Kerry and Saint Bill Clinton basically defend the Bush doctrine for war or was that two positions ago for Kerry?

Again, not the point of the article. It was one guy's opinion of Bush's stump speech. I captioned the thread as I did to illustrate a point - that point is both candidates are going to campaign the same way.. A lot of people where taking a "holier than thou" approach to the things Kerry said... seems the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree...

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">The real question an incumbent faces is, what now? What's next? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Did this guy miss the proposal for a flat tax or the proposal to fix social security by privatizing it?

I don't know what he may have missed, I've not personally heard Bush's stump speech. I do know that Slate is considered by many Republicans and Democrats alike as about as "nonbiased" as you can get.. At least that's my understanding of Slate's reputation.. You may disagree.. hell, some people believe Sean Hannity, Drudge and Ann Coulter are nonbiased... such is your right, I suppose. Misguided, in my mind.. but your right no less.
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Old 08-11-2004, 05:59 PM
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I'd believe Slate before I'd believe Hannity, Coulter, the Nation, or the New York Times, that's for sure. You're right on at the end of your first post, bkb: it's all-too-familiar with two candidates people are at best lukewarm about, as they are forced to smear the other guy rather than stepping up with vision and saying "Vote for me because..."


This is very similar in logic to my post in the other thread regarding why negative campaign ads work...stir emotion to generate action....knowledge won't do it with these two.
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Old 08-11-2004, 09:51 PM
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knowledge won't do it with these two.
Jenga!!

You've hit the nail on the head my friend.

It's like watching two blind men box.
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Old 08-12-2004, 12:05 AM