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  #1906 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye513 View Post
Do you have another source?
House.gov doesn't count?
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  #1907 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 12:19 AM
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On to California.....
 
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Excerpts from the bill...same site as previously noted....

H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.? [page 1]

If the government determines that the taxpayer?s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply?? [page 2]

?Criminal penalties
Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:
? Section 7203 ? misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.
? Section 7201 ? felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.? [page 3]
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  #1908 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 12:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeMike80 View Post
House.gov doesn't count?
An article titled "PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail" on the Ways and Means Republicans website is a little frivolous.

Doesn't really matter though. Having just read the letter, looks like more sensationalist bull[censored] trying to scare people.
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  #1909 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye513 View Post
An article titled "PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail" on the Ways and Means Republicans website is a little frivolous.

Doesn't really matter though. Having just read the letter, looks like more sensationalist bull[censored] trying to scare people.
I suppose you missed the part it is from the non-partisan committee (see below)........
yes a Repub released the letter but they didn't write it.....

Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail.

Info on the JCT.....

The Joint Committee on Taxation is a nonpartisan committee of the United States Congress, originally established under the Revenue Act of 1926. The Joint Committee operates with an experienced professional staff of Ph.D economists, attorneys, and accountants, who assist Members of the majority and minority parties in both houses of Congress on tax legislation.
The Joint Committee is chaired on a rotating basis by the Chairman of the Senate Finance Committee and the Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee. During the first Session of each Congress the House has the Chair and the Senate has the vice-chair; during the second session the roles are reversed.
The Joint Committee Staff is closely involved with every aspect of the tax legislative process, including:
  • Assisting Congressional tax-writing committees and Members of Congress with development and analysis of legislative proposals;
  • Preparing official revenue estimates of all tax legislation considered by the Congress;
  • Drafting legislative histories for tax-related bills; and
  • Investigating various aspects of the Federal tax system.
The Joint Committee Staff interacts with Members of Congress, Members of the tax-writing committees, and their staff on a confidential basis and enjoys a high-level of trust from both sides of the political aisle and in both houses of Congress. Because the Joint Committee Staff is independent, tax-focused, and involved in all stages of the tax legislative process, the staff is able to ensure consistency as tax bills move through committees to the floor of each chamber, and to a House-Senate conference committee.
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  #1910 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourteenandoh View Post
anyone know when the vote is tomorrow?
even pelosi has said 2010 at this point....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye513 View Post
Do you have another source?
that atricle links the cbo and jct. you cant get much more unbiased than the congressional nominate groups (granted the congress is controlled by dems, so...)
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  #1911 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman View Post
even pelosi has said 2010 at this point....

that atricle links the cbo and jct. you cant get much more unbiased than the congressional nominate groups (granted the congress is controlled by dems, so...)
why is everyone saying tomorrow is the day then?

regarding the CBO... both parties are manipulating the bills they present to the CBO. the dems took the most expensive part of their plan and buried it into a different bill. that way when the CBO scored their healthcare bill they could claim that it is deficit neutral. total BS.
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  #1912 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 10:31 PM
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1 hour to go. Hotair.com reports that 35 Dems will vote no but that is not confirmed.

It's going to be razor close folks. Regardless - the Sunday morning shows should make for some good TV tomorrow morning.

Hopefully they'll have someone intelligent on there - like Maxine Waters!
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  #1913 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourteenandoh
why is everyone saying tomorrow is the day then?

regarding the CBO... both parties are manipulating the bills they present to the CBO. the dems took the most expensive part of their plan and buried it into a different bill. that way when the CBO scored their healthcare bill they could claim that it is deficit neutral. total BS.
if they pass the house version, then you have to have the senate pass their version. then it goes to conference committee, then you have to pass the cc bill in identical language in both houses.
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  #1914 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 10:51 PM
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The votes are there in the House, but it took a major compromise on the abortion issue.

But, yes, the Senate is next and then to conference.
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  #1915 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman
if they pass the house version, then you have to have the senate pass their version. then it goes to conference committee, then you have to pass the cc bill in identical language in both houses.
Betsy McCaughey: What the Pelosi Health Care Bill Really Says - WSJ.com
Quote:
Sec. 202 (p. 91-92) of the bill requires you to enroll in a "qualified plan." If you get your insurance at work, your employer will have a "grace period" to switch you to a "qualified plan," meaning a plan designed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services. If you buy your own insurance, there's no grace period. You'll have to enroll in a qualified plan as soon as any term in your contract changes, such as the co-pay, deductible or benefit.
this is the "choice" they speak of? not all folks have the same needs, and shouldnt be forced into a cookie cutter policy.
Quote:
• Sec. 224 (p. 118) provides that 18 months after the bill becomes law, the Secretary of Health and Human Services will decide what a "qualified plan" covers and how much you'll be legally required to pay for it. That's like a banker telling you to sign the loan agreement now, then filling in the interest rate and repayment terms 18 months later.

On Nov. 2, the Congressional Budget Office estimated what the plans will likely cost. An individual earning $44,000 before taxes who purchases his own insurance will have to pay a $5,300 premium and an estimated $2,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, for a total of $7,300 a year, which is 17% of his pre-tax income. A family earning $102,100 a year before taxes will have to pay a $15,000 premium plus an estimated $5,300 out-of-pocket, for a $20,300 total, or 20% of its pre-tax income. Individuals and families earning less than these amounts will be eligible for subsidies paid directly to their insurer.
for many folks this may/likely will be an increase. while others will get drastic subsidies.
Quote:
Sec. 303 (pp. 167-168) makes it clear that, although the "qualified plan" is not yet designed, it will be of the "one size fits all" variety. The bill claims to offer choice—basic, enhanced and premium levels—but the benefits are the same. Only the co-pays and deductibles differ. You will have to enroll in the same plan, whether the government is paying for it or you and your employer are footing the bill.
a 25 year old healthy male and a 59 year old female shouldnt be forced into the same policy... no way. it makes no sense.
Quote:
Sec. 59b (pp. 297-299) says that when you file your taxes, you must include proof that you are in a qualified plan. If not, you will be fined thousands of dollars. Illegal immigrants are exempt from this requirement.
should make the w2 even more fun. needing to find all the proper insurance docs and requirements...
Quote:
Sec. 412 (p. 272) says that employers must provide a "qualified plan" for their employees and pay 72.5% of the cost, and a smaller share of family coverage, or incur an 8% payroll tax. Small businesses, with payrolls from $500,000 to $750,000, are fined less.
the "mandate"

medicare
Quote:
Sec. 1302 (pp. 672-692) moves Medicare from a fee-for-service payment system, in which patients choose which doctors to see and doctors are paid for each service they provide, toward what's called a "medical home." The medical home is this decade's version of HMO-restrictions on care. A primary-care provider manages access to costly specialists and diagnostic tests for a flat monthly fee. The bill specifies that patients may have to settle for a nurse practitioner rather than a physician as the primary-care provider. Medical homes begin with demonstration projects, but the HHS secretary is authorized to "disseminate this approach rapidly on a national basis."
A December 2008 Congressional Budget Office report noted that "medical homes" were likely to resemble the unpopular gatekeepers of 20 years ago if cost control was a priority.
Quote:
Sec. 1114 (pp. 391-393) replaces physicians with physician assistants in overseeing care for hospice patients.
probably not all that bad, granted anytime you "downgrade" entitlements itll fire some folks up.
Quote:
Secs. 1158-1160 (pp. 499-520) initiates programs to reduce payments for patient care to what it costs in the lowest cost regions of the country. This will reduce payments for care (and by implication the standard of care) for hospital patients in higher cost areas such as New York and Florida.
Quote:
Sec. 1161 (pp. 520-545) cuts payments to Medicare Advantage plans (used by 20% of seniors). Advantage plans have warned this will result in reductions in optional benefits such as vision and dental care.
cuts are about 500b over the 10 years.
Quote:
Sec. 1402 (p. 756) says that the results of comparative effectiveness research conducted by the government will be delivered to doctors electronically to guide their use of "medical items and services."
cer, or as sarah palin calls them death panels. that being said im not ubber excited about a federal database with all my health records. but all online records are the future just as weve seen with financial records as those have been shifted online. obvious breach and security issues. along with ability for people (govt, or others) to check on your health record, legally or illegally.

other
Quote:
Sec. 399V (p. 1422) provides for grants to community "entities" with no required qualifications except having "documented community activity and experience with community healthcare workers" to "educate, guide, and provide experiential learning opportunities" aimed at drug abuse, poor nutrition, smoking and obesity. "Each community health worker program receiving funds under the grant will provide services in the cultural context most appropriate for the individual served by the program." These programs will "enhance the capacity of individuals to utilize health services and health related social services under Federal, State and local programs by assisting individuals in establishing eligibility . . . and in receiving services and other benefits" including transportation and translation services.
? not even a clue...
Quote:
Sec. 222 (p. 617) provides reimbursement for culturally and linguistically appropriate services. This program will train health-care workers to inform Medicare beneficiaries of their "right" to have an interpreter at all times and with no co-pays for language services.
the diversity thing. hate to say it, i love to see diversity, but when i get a dr, i want the best available regardless of race, religion, gender...
Quote:
Secs. 2521 and 2533 (pp. 1379 and 1437) establishes racial and ethnic preferences in awarding grants for training nurses and creating secondary-school health science programs. For example, grants for nursing schools should "give preference to programs that provide for improving the diversity of new nurse graduates to reflect changes in the demographics of the patient population." And secondary-school grants should go to schools "graduating students from disadvantaged backgrounds including racial and ethnic minorities."
see above.
Quote:
Sec. 305 (p. 189) Provides for automatic Medicaid enrollment of newborns who do not otherwise have insurance.
so why by health insurance for your kids when/if they are auto enrolled?
Betsy McCaughey: What the Pelosi Health Care Bill Really Says - WSJ.com
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  #1916 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman View Post
Betsy McCaughey: What the Pelosi Health Care Bill Really Says - WSJ.com

this is the "choice" they speak of? not all folks have the same needs, and shouldnt be forced into a cookie cutter policy.


for many folks this may/likely will be an increase. while others will get drastic subsidies.

a 25 year old healthy male and a 59 year old female shouldnt be forced into the same policy... no way. it makes no sense.

should make the w2 even more fun. needing to find all the proper insurance docs and requirements...

the "mandate"

medicare


probably not all that bad, granted anytime you "downgrade" entitlements itll fire some folks up.



cuts are about 500b over the 10 years.

cer, or as sarah palin calls them death panels. that being said im not ubber excited about a federal database with all my health records. but all online records are the future just as weve seen with financial records as those have been shifted online. obvious breach and security issues. along with ability for people (govt, or others) to check on your health record, legally or illegally.

other

? not even a clue...

the diversity thing. hate to say it, i love to see diversity, but when i get a dr, i want the best available regardless of race, religion, gender...

see above.

so why by health insurance for your kids when/if they are auto enrolled?
Betsy McCaughey: What the Pelosi Health Care Bill Really Says - WSJ.com
Please Google the author's name. She is the most discredited person on the planet on issues of health care reform. She wrote a bogus article that helped kill Hillarycare and her M.O. is to basically throw so much [censored] against the wall that it can't be defended.
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  #1917 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CookyPuss
Please Google the author's name. She is the most discredited person on the planet on issues of health care reform. She wrote a bogus article that helped kill Hillarycare and her M.O. is to basically throw so much [censored] against the wall that it can't be defended.
shes the former lt gov of ny. profesor at columbia. once an R then a D back to the Rs.

so she was critical of hillarycare. and what?
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  #1918 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman View Post
shes the former lt gov of ny. profesor at columbia. once an R then a D back to the Rs.

so she was critical of hillarycare. and what?
Here's a pretty good summary:

No Exit | The New Republic

Even Andrew Sullivan, who was the editor who published the original article at TNR, has admitted that it was bunk.

McCaughey And Me - The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan
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  #1919 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2009, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CookyPuss
Here's a pretty good summary:

No Exit | The New Republic

Even Andrew Sullivan, who was the editor who published the original article at TNR, has admitted that it was bunk.

McCaughey And Me - The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan
so those provisions arent in the bill? or are they?
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Old 11-07-2009, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman View Post
so those provisions arent in the bill? or are they?
This is what she does. Yes, there are provisions with those numbers in the bill. She picks out key words and misrepresents what they mean to give them the most unfavorable interpretation possible. She throws out a bunch of such misrepresentations that it would take hours to explain and debunk them all. She's not an idiot, she knows what she's doing. It has worked before and people keep listening to her. Tell a hundred lies and it takes forever to debunk 98 of them while the most egregious 2 still have legs. What's the saying? If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull [censored].
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