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Political Conversation and Debate This forum is not a temporary one. It will exist up to, and after the presidential elections. Some people want to talk or even argue politics, other's don't. Let's see if we can apply some reason and understanding to the debate.

 
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2007, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeyeskickbuttocks View Post
I'm no genius when it comes to these things... indeed, I know so little about insurance it's absurd... but.. I do know that the more people you have in a plan, the less it costs the individual. I have a hard time believing the amount of tax dollars spent on some sort of universal plan, as a percentage, will be anything but negligible.
Same here and that's why I believe it's ultimately possible and necessary. I just want people to speak like investors of the system... if it's seen as a new benefit for all paid for by the mysterious 'them', costs will rise more than is truly necessary.

I should probably add that I have no health insurance right now. However, I'm fortunate enough to have the tools to get it again, so that's the goal I'm pursuing.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2007, 11:40 PM
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here's a number for you, Deety............



Health Absence, Disability, and Presenteeism Cost Estimates of Certain Physical and Mental Health Conditions Affecting U.S. Employers. 2004, Ron Goetzal, et al. Journal of Occupational and Environmental Medicine.
This report examines the total costs of health, absence, and short-term disability, and productivity losses for 10 health conditions. Goetzal estimates that when sick workers are on the job, it costs our national economy $180 billion annually in lost productivity. For employers, this costs an average of $255 per employee per year and exceeds the cost of absenteeism and medical and disability benefits.
Paid Sick Days: RESEARCH: STUDIES

So, at least in theory, healthier workers would more than offset the costs of health care.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2007, 11:40 PM
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Furthermore, as I think about it a little bit.. a couple things strike me

1 - I have been to the doctor a handful of times over the course of the last 5 or so years. Fortunate for me, yes. But, being that I have insurance, I have paid a [censored]LOAD for those handfuls of visits. I pay an outlandish sum every month, money that would "go back in to my pocket" if I had some sort of universal plan.

2 - indigent patients get treated regardless of insurance at several hospitals. The State eats it. This already happens.. the "universal" care, to some degree...

3 - taking factor 1 and 2 and spreading it across the employed population of the US, I dare say I might spend less per year on health care

Edit: and I do not seriously believe the parade of horribles about some reduction in the standard of care over time. I simply have too much faith that we'll still be able to produce brilliant doctors from brilliant institutions.
Last edited by Buckeyeskickbuttocks; 09-17-2007 at 11:48 PM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2007, 11:58 PM
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With efficiencies, surely we could do much better than we are. However, I don't think I'd be willing to support a program on those grounds... on moral grounds, definitely, but not on the idea that universal health care will cost everyone less. There are too many variables including implementation of those efficiencies, more people in the system, more people currently in the system using it more... not sure that people would stop using their sick time, and the reduction in crises due to preventative care won't be immediate.

On moral grounds, I still think we need universal care. It just concerns me that it seems everyone is talking about what they'll save, how they'll benefit, what more they'll get... not sure that's going to make for a great balance sheet. It's worth paying for... but I would like to hear a more general acknowledgment that there just might be a payment involved.
Last edited by Deety; 09-18-2007 at 12:04 AM.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:02 AM
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A word of caution to all using or thinking of using company "plans".
Lots of companies don't have a clue to what they are doing in health care plans.
Or may wish to make money off you. I had that happen to me.
Be an informed consumer.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:07 AM
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When I look at problems, I try to get a big picture look.
I look at this big picture problem and see it's not working. More every year can't afford health care.
What data I can find suggests that healthier workers benefit the economy, which benefits us all.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosman View Post
A word of caution to all using or thinking of using company "plans".
Lots of companies don't have a clue to what they are doing in health care plans.
Or may wish to make money off you. I had that happen to me.
Be an informed consumer.
I've had "company plans" at some level either through my Dad or myself for as long as I can remember and I don't ever remember or recall having one issue with them.

This includes 3 different surgeries among other things.

Being an informed consumer is one thing, using your example as an example to be shared by everyone is quite another Taos.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeMike80 View Post
Being an informed consumer is one thing, using your example as an example to be shared by everyone is quite another Taos.
It's pretty general advice, but why call him out over it?

Anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosman
When I look at problems, I try to get a big picture look.
I look at this big picture problem and see it's not working. More every year can't afford health care.
What data I can find suggests that healthier workers benefit the economy, which benefits us all.
Of course.

Now assume for a moment that for some reason... any reason... having a universal system winds up costing, not saving. You still cool with paying more if that's what it takes?

Don't really to put you on the spot, buddy... but I think that's something we all need to answer... in the affirmative... and I don't want to give up this chat without hearing yours.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 10:06 AM
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It appears that the 110 billion a year plan doesn't factor in illegal immigrants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Article
DES MOINES, Iowa (CNN) ? At a press briefing after Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton's health care rollout Monday, senior policy advisers said the New York senator's plan does not currently include any details on whether illegal immigrants will be covered.

Senior policy adviser Laurie Rubiner?while acknowledging that undocumented immigrants are a "huge issue" in this country?said, "That's one we're going to have to think through a little bit."
"We have not dealt with every single detail with this plan," Rubiner continued.

When asked if it would be safe to assume that the Democratic frontrunner, at this point, has no position on coverage for illegal immigrants advisers answered "yes" and said the plan does not "at this point" deal with that issue.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 10:13 AM
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The figure I have seen for illegal immigrants is 8-9 million.
How many will get/use the universal coverage?
Half? Less?
It's pure speculation at this point.

Number of Americans uninsured is about 60 million and growing.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deety View Post
Now assume for a moment that for some reason... any reason... having a universal system winds up costing, not saving. You still cool with paying more if that's what it takes?

Don't really to put you on the spot, buddy... but I think that's something we all need to answer... in the affirmative... and I don't want to give up this chat without hearing yours.
How will we know if nothing is tried? If it ends up not being worth it, the problem is not solved, other options must be looked at.
You see, we have no choice in the matter.
It's not just a matter of doing the right thing.
The uninsured is a growing problem(60 million and growing) and will not go away by itself.
And we are all paying for the uninsured with our taxes.
Last edited by BrutuStrength; 09-18-2007 at 10:28 AM. Reason: Corrected quote issue
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosman View Post
The figure I have seen for illegal immigrants is 8-9 million.
How many will get/use the universal coverage?
Half? Less?
It's pure speculation at this point.
It's not speculation, since these people already exist and are already a burden to law abiding tax payers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosman View Post
Number of Americans uninsured is about 60 million and growing.
Perhaps your 60 million number already includes illegal immigrants. Because according to the US Dept of Health and Human Services, there is only around 45 million Americans that lack insurance. Their general plan (outlined at the second link) appears to be similar to the model enacted in MA under Romney.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taosman View Post
How will we know if nothing is tried? If it ends up not being worth it, the problem is not solved, other options must be looked at.
You see, we have no choice in the matter.
It's not just a matter of doing the right thing.
The uninsured is a growing problem(60 million and growing) and will not go away by itself.
And we are all paying for the uninsured with our taxes.
We're also currently paying for the illegal immigrants that utilize the ER too, as they are also part of the "uninsured" in the US. If she's (Clinton) going to have a plan, shouldn't she also address the illegal immigrants?

If they get universal coverage too, then that's another $15-$20 Billion or so that needs to be added to her annual projection. And that extra $15-$20 billion doesn't factor in the number of illegals that will enter the country after such policy is enacted just to receive free health care.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deety View Post
I believe Taos is pointing toward the idea that preventative care can reduce the number of high-cost incidents by fixing little issues before they become ER visits.
Perhaps in the case of heart issues.....but then again most heart issues tend to be traced back to poor diet and lifestyle habits. Family history plays a little into the mix but I the former play bigger.

With all due respect, how do checkups prevent a broken leg, stitches, drug overdose, alchohol poisining or second or third degree burns?
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekeen View Post
Perhaps in the case of heart issues.....but then again most heart issues tend to be traced back to poor diet and lifestyle habits. Family history plays a little into the mix but I the former play bigger.
Family history (genetics) is a hugely influential factor in determining cholesterol scores, and thus propensity for heart disease. Some members of the human race simply are not destined to live much past forty, no matter what happens.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2007, 03:05 PM
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I don't feel like working anymore. Can the people here with jobs just subsidize my health care with your tax dollars?
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