Healthcare (official thread)

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by ekeen

I would not. Stabilization of Iraq and defeating terrorism will undermine OBL's grand uptopian dream of the spread of his religion of terror.

Americans have enough entitlements already. Why create a new class of undeserving, unthankful saps.

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Which is to say, while universal health insurance is not Bible based, the issue of unworthiness seems to me to be problematic at best. The rest of the so-called civilized world does not make its citizens go without health care. In my practice I see the effect of that. I know many women who do not look for work because they have health issues for their kids and families, and it they worked they would lose health coverage. While they could and wanted to work, if they did the amount they could make would not cover the health insurance, and so they would subject their families to actual harm if they worked. The are "worthy", but not working because of the cost of private insurance.

[Bucky Katt]

Originally Posted by Deety

It's not a wash, or Clinton wouldn't be talking about 110 billion additional dollars. In a tremendously oversimplified example... divide that by the number of people producing more than they receive, and that's your additional share. Are you good with that?

I would assume an increase in tax will be offset by a decrease in premiums. Insurance premiums for my wife and I are $8200 a year. I can't believe that a related tax increase would exceed that.

Originally Posted by Buckeyeskickbuttocks

Furthermore, as I think about it a little bit.. a couple things strike me

1 - I have been to the doctor a handful of times over the course of the last 5 or so years. Fortunate for me, yes. But, being that I have insurance, I have paid a [censored]LOAD for those handfuls of visits. I pay an outlandish sum every month, money that would "go back in to my pocket" if I had some sort of universal plan.

2 - indigent patients get treated regardless of insurance at several hospitals. The State eats it. This already happens.. the "universal" care, to some degree...

3 - taking factor 1 and 2 and spreading it across the employed population of the US, I dare say I might spend less per year on health care

Right, those with insurance are paying for the uninsured's sickness and injuries anyways. May as well try to pass along a proportionate share to everyone.

What I fear would arise is a system in which there is a maximum income level to qualify for the federal program, which would encourage people not to work for fear of exceeding the income level and being disqualified.

[Big Papa]

Originally Posted by DaytonBuck

I don't feel like working anymore. Can the people here with jobs just subsidize my health care with your tax dollars?

I don't feel like seeing any more dead Americans come back from Iraq or spend another 12 billion dollars this month on creating a democracy for a country of people who don't want it, can we start redeployment now?

[Taosman]

"If they get universal coverage too, then that's another $15-$20 Billion or so that needs to be added to her annual projection. And that extra $15-$20 billion doesn't factor in the number of illegals that will enter the country after such policy is enacted just to receive free health care."

Where did you get your numbers from?

And your jumping to conclusions that there will be some sort of rush into this country just to take advantage of a universal health care system.
We're working on closing the borders, that should slow things down more.

[Best Buckeye]

Originally Posted by Taosman

"If they get universal coverage too, then that's another $15-$20 Billion or so that needs to be added to her annual projection. And that extra $15-$20 billion doesn't factor in the number of illegals that will enter the country after such policy is enacted just to receive free health care."

Where did you get your numbers from?

And your jumping to conclusions that there will be some sort of rush into this country just to take advantage of a universal health care system.
We're working on closing the borders, that should slow things down more.

If we are going to give free health care to illegal aliens then why not just go all the way and give free health care to the world because they will be coming in droves to get it any way they can. Then think about how long it will take you to see a doctor let alone get an operation. Neither the Canadian or the Europian version of universal health care was succesful in timely health care. It was as if they waited long enough a lot of the people would die waiting and thus really reduce the costs.

[sandgk]

It won't be free if they pay taxes. Both the European and Canadian versions have flaws that are obvious viz-a-viz timely access. But, then again, our overly expensive model has many hidden delays. Plus, much of the horror story telling that the pharmaceutical and HMO companies propagandize upon is simply a case of not putting someone under the knife repeatedly. Which delay in service also happens here.

The issue of the illegal aliens is essentially the worst case of straw man argument anyway. You pay for their care in any event - when things become dire, and is therefore at it's most expensive.

All I would ask in this debate is this, if we are to discuss the issue, at least let us not fall into the trap of adopting the worst propaganda from either side. (Trust me, I know that is hard not to do - so much crap from both economically or politically committed sides has polluted what should be a very straightforward debate from which, who knows, maybe a better model of health-care than we, Canada or Europe have might emerge).

[Best Buckeye]

How can they pay taxes without a SS#.. We wouldn't pay a thing for them if the Govt would enforce its laws and kick their butts out. Why should we pay for Anything , let alone health care for poeple who are not sworn to uphold our country. who only come here to take , not give. Once poeple the world over know we give free health care to anyone they would over whelm the whole govt.

Originally Posted by sandgk

It won't be free if they pay taxes. Both the European and Canadian versions have flaws that are obvious viz-a-viz timely access. But, then again, our overly expensive model has many hidden delays. Plus, much of the horror story telling that the pharmaceutical and HMO companies propagandize upon is simply a case of not putting someone under the knife repeatedly. Which delay in service also happens here.

The issue of the illegal aliens is essentially the worst case of straw man argument anyway. You pay for their care in any event - when things become dire, and is therefore at it's most expensive.

All I would ask in this debate is this, if we are to discuss the issue, at least let us not fall into the trap of adopting the worst propaganda from either side. (Trust me, I know that is hard not to do - so much crap from both economically or politically committed sides has polluted what should be a very straightforward debate from which, who knows, maybe a better model of health-care than we, Canada or Europe have might emerge).

[sandgk]

Originally Posted by Best Buckeye

How can they pay taxes without a SS#..

BB, if you look over a lot of the stories of "undocumented" workers you will find that a lot of them have documentation out the kazoo - including taxes getting paid. They may not file, but those revenues get into the coffers.

Originally Posted by Best Buckeye

We wouldn't pay a thing for them if the Govt would enforce its laws and kick their butts out. Why should we pay for Anything , let alone health care for poeple who are not sworn to uphold our country. who only come here to take , not give. Once poeple the world over know we give free health care to anyone they would over whelm the whole govt.

Ah, but there's the rub, getting them kicked out of the country A - costs money, B - doesn't solve the underlying problem, that only they or their ilk are likely to take on the jobs offered and besides which ...

C - it is irrelevant to the larger discussion. As in, you don't decide how to handle the problem of health-care for the entire population by concerning yourself with solving the issue of immigration, illegal or not.

[DaytonBuck]

Most Canadians like their free health care, but Canadian doctors tell us the system is cracking. More than a million Canadians cannot find a regular family doctor. One town holds a lottery. Once a week the town clerk gets a box out of the closet. Everyone who wants to have a family doctor puts his or her name in it. The clerk pulls out one slip to determine the winner. Others in town have to wait.


It's driven some Canadians to private for-profit clinics. A new one opens somewhere in Canada almost every week. Although it's not clear that such private clinics are legal, one is run by the president of the Canadian Medical Association, Dr. Brian Day, because under government care, he says, "We found ourselves in a situation where we were seeing sick patients and weren't being allowed to treat them. That was something that we couldn't tolerate."


Canadians stuck on waiting lists often pay "medical travel agents" to get to America for treatment. Shirley Healey had a blocked artery that kept her from digesting food. So she hired a middleman to help her get to a hospital in Washington state.

Link

Nice little write up by John Stossel. If universal health care would work I'd be all for it.

[Best Buckeye]

Originally Posted by sandgk

BB, if you look over a lot of the stories of "undocumented" workers you will find that a lot of them have documentation out the kazoo - including taxes getting paid. They may not file, but those revenues get into the coffers.

Ah, but there's the rub, getting them kicked out of the country A - costs money, B - doesn't solve the underlying problem, that only they or their ilk are likely to take on the jobs offered and besides which ...

C - it is irrelevant to the larger discussion. As in, you don't decide how to handle the problem of health-care for the entire population by concerning yourself with solving the issue of immigration, illegal or not.

Taos briought up the issue of the Illegals . I just don't think they are deserving, and two they will flood the country if all they know they have to do is 1. get in , and 2. get to any clinic or hospital. Also there are people ,like Taos who think that the illegals are deserving of anything America has to offer , unconditionally, and that is just plain wrong.

[ekeen]

Canada has a de facto free market system for healthcare. For those that can afford it, you can buy supplemental insurance so you can get a knee replacement in a timely manner by a physician that you choose. Otherwise, you will have to wait in line for 6 months to get a relatively routine procedure.

I'm not sure what all this debate is about. Indigent folks get free medicine from pharmaceutical companies and get free healthcare under Medicaid. There is already a socialistic structure in place.

Originally Posted by Big Papa

I don't feel like seeing any more dead Americans come back from Iraq or spend another 12 billion dollars this month on creating a democracy for a country of people who don't want it, can we start redeployment now?

Would you rather spend 24 billion a month on crappy healthcare for all of us? I wouldn't.

Originally Posted by Buckeyeskickbuttocks

Edit: and I do not seriously believe the parade of horribles about some reduction in the standard of care over time. I simply have too much faith that we'll still be able to produce brilliant doctors from brilliant institutions.

Try telling a doctor he is only going to make 50K a year for the 'greater good'. How do you justify that when an average MD carries about 250K in student loans?

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

My interpretation of that is probably similiar to yours - feed the sick, cloth the poor. This is why I believe in tithing and charities. I am not a biblical scholar (GB89 is better at that) but I would bet their is some verbiage in that book that specifically addresses dependancy and the dangers of taking advantage of another. I specifically remember a story a priest told my confirmation class in 8th grade - he picked up a buddy who went to jail.....bailed him out etc. The guy was supposed to repay him and the priest said he never heard from him again. Although the priest said he forgave him, he said it was never God's intention to be taken advantage of and that he would not bail his buddy out of jail if he received another call.

[BrutuStrength]

Originally Posted by Taosman

"If they get universal coverage too, then that's another $15-$20 Billion or so that needs to be added to her annual projection. And that extra $15-$20 billion doesn't factor in the number of illegals that will enter the country after such policy is enacted just to receive free health care."

Where did you get your numbers from?

Math

Going by the most recent number of uninsured (nearly 45 million) per HHS, and Hillary's plan costing $110 billion a year, that means there is a cost of $2,444 per uninsured person, via her plan ($110 billion/45 million = $2,444).

Now then, since her plan presently doesn't take into account the illegal population, and by using your numbers of illegals, 8 to 9 million (let's just use 8.5 million to simplify the calculations) at an additional cost of $2,444 per, the additional expense for those 8.5 million people would be nearly $21 billion (8.5 million * $2,444 = $20,777,777,778).

Originally Posted by Taosman

And your jumping to conclusions that there will be some sort of rush into this country just to take advantage of a universal health care system.
We're working on closing the borders, that should slow things down more.

We can certainly hope so, but you can color me skeptical until they actually get things secured.

[Taosman]

Have illegals "flooded" into Canada for health care?

[BrutuStrength]

Originally Posted by Taosman

Have illegals "flooded" into Canada for health care?

Nope... They found out they've can just go to our ERs instead. Plus, I hear it also saves them on gas.

[Big Papa]

Originally Posted by ekeen

Would you rather spend 24 billion a month on crappy healthcare for all of us? I wouldn't.

Would love to find out your sources for you claim here of 24 billion and that EVERYONE would have to be included, and let's see, healthcare for those Americans who don't have it or can't afford it or dead Americans fighting a war for a country of people who don't want us there and don't appreciate our sacrifices and wasting billions every month there................hmmmmmm........I'm going to go ahead and go with option 1 and take care of our people here at home. You scare me ekeen.