F-22 Raptor, What the hell are we doing?

[cincibuck]

At a time when the Soviet Union and China have nothing in the air to challenge the F-15, let alone the F-22, when the war we are fighting is centered on the ground and on a people-to-people basis, when the enemy has no air assets, when CENTCOM is screaming for more drones, when soldiers and marines are calling for more "close in, low and slow," TAC air, when the A-10 fleet is aging and shunted off to the AF Reserve, when we are aware that this plane is limited by what a human body-- even one in a g-suit-- can stand, we get the Raptor.

And as I discovered during a tour of the Air Force Museum restoration hanger, this aircraft was outperformed in the trials leading up to the awarding of the contract!

What are we thinking?

[AKAKBUCK]

The Soviets have nothing to Challenge the F-15?

Yeah, That's just what they want you to think.

[t_BuckeyeScott]

The soviets definitely have a jet to challenge the F 22: the new MIG 35. It's a serious plane. I was trying to find the website I was on months ago comparing the two, but I failed. The F22 and the MiG 35 definitely have slightly different purposes. The F22 would probably still win in an outright dog fight. But there are longer range stuff that the MiG 35 can do that the Raptor can't. Also the MiG 35 could definitely take the 15s 16s.

I tend to agree that the F22 is the better overall plane, but there were Americans on that site I found that thought the MiG 35 was better. I I was in the Air Force and I questioned a lot of things that went on, the Raptor was not one of them.

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Originally Posted by cincibuck

And as I discovered during a tour of the Air Force Museum restoration hanger, this aircraft was outperformed in the trials leading up to the awarding of the contract!

What are we thinking?

Out performed by what? I've heard that in exercises the Raptor took down every 15 and 16 in a dogfight scenario when the ratio was something like 60:4 F15/16 to F22. No Raptors were taken down. It doesn't seem to be close.

[AKAKBUCK]

Originally Posted by t_BuckeyeScott

The soviets definitely have a jet to challenge the F 22: the new MIG 35. It's a serious plane. I was trying to find the website I was on months ago comparing the two, but I failed. The F22 and the MiG 35 definitely have slightly different purposes. The F22 would probably still win in an outright dog fight. But there are longer range stuff that the MiG 35 can do that the Raptor can't. Also the MiG 35 could definitely take the 15s 16s.

I tend to agree that the F22 is the better overall plane, but there were Americans on that site I found that thought the MiG 35 was better. I I was in the Air Force and I questioned a lot of things that went on, the Raptor was not one of them.

Damned Commies!

Originally Posted by t_BuckeyeScott

Out performed by what? I've heard that in exercises the Raptor took down every 15 and 16 in a dogfight scenario when the ratio was something like 60:4 F15/16 to F22. No Raptors were taken down. It doesn't seem to be close.

I'm assuming he meant the other entry(ies) for the contract.

[cincibuck]

Originally Posted by AKAKBUCK

I'm assuming he meant the other entry(ies) for the contract.

Yep, the Northrup entry was faster, more agile and carried a bigger payload.

Experts quoted during the Soviet May Day parade stated that modern Russian equipment, to include the 35, is well behind our current equipment... across the board. Not hard to believe. the two wars in the desert and the recent bombing of Syrian nuke facility by Israel taught us a great deal about Russian equipment.

The military is in a real mess, (as is the economy, the politics... ) corruption is rampant, so is alcoholism, investigations into the beastly treatment of young conscripts and the failure to consistently pay the full time NCOs and officers, their equipment, never known for reliabilty in the first place, remains in the shop more often than a Jaguar sedan.

If it weren't for the huge gas and oil deposits the whole place would be ripe for a new revolution, up [censored] creek without means of propulsion.

[shetuck]

Originally Posted by AKAKBUCK

Damned Commies!

I'm assuming he meant the other entry(ies) for the contract.

Damned elitist commies always outperformin' us n' sh*t!

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Originally Posted by cincibuck

Yep, the Northrup entry was faster, more agile and carried a bigger payload.

Experts quoted during the Soviet May Day parade stated that modern Russian equipment, to include the 35, is well behind our current equipment... across the board. Not hard to believe. the two wars in the desert and the recent bombing of Syrian nuke facility by Israel taught us a great deal about Russian equipment.

The military is in a real mess, (as is the economy, the politics... ) corruption is rampant, so is alcoholism, investigations into the beastly treatment of young conscripts and the failure to consistently pay the full time NCOs and officers, their equipment, never known for reliabilty in the first place, remains in the shop more often than a Jaguar sedan.

If it weren't for the huge gas and oil deposits the whole place would be ripe for a new revolution, up [censored] creek without means of propulsion.

The biggest question about the other planes was the stealthiness. The Raptor's radar footprint can be indecipherable to that of a bird depending on the payload being carried.

[Wingate1217]

Everything you wanted to know about the F-22......

F-22 Raptor - Military Aircraft

The F-22 program is developing the next-generation air superiority fighter for the Air Force to counter emerging worldwide threats. It is designed to penetrate enemy airspace and achieve a first-look, first-kill capability against multiple targets. The F-22 is characterized by a low-observable, highly maneuverable airframe; advanced integrated avionics; and aerodynamic performance allowing supersonic cruise without afterburner.
<B>

Stealth</B>: Greatly increases survivability and lethality by denying the enemy critical information required to successfully attack the F-22
Integrated Avionics: Allows F-22 pilots unprecedented awareness of enemy forces through the fusion of on- and off-board information
Supercruise: Enhances weapons effectiveness; allows rapid transit through the battlespace; reduces the enemy?s time to counter attack

[cincibuck]

Originally Posted by t_BuckeyeScott

The biggest question about the other planes was the stealthiness. The Raptor's radar footprint can be indecipherable to that of a bird depending on the payload being carried.

The reason for the contract going to the Raptor was not performance based. It had to do with contracts the other company already had on its plate.

Think of it in the same way the SAW and the M-16 got into the Army inventory; chosen for the wrong damn reasons.

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Originally Posted by cincibuck

The reason for the contract going to the Raptor was not performance based. It had to do with contracts the other company already had on its plate.

Think of it in the same way the SAW and the M-16 got into the Army inventory; chosen for the wrong damn reasons.

Don't necessarily disagree fully, but I don't think its as bad as you say. The Raptor is one bad-ass jet.

[t_BuckeyeScott]

Yes in general the 15s and 16s are good planes and better than most out there. But giving our military a decisive even dominant edge in the air is an important part of the military strategy. We had complete dominance of the air in Iraq which allowed the shock and awe to happen. The Iraqi air force never even got off the ground. The military wants to maintain that dominance.

I know there are many problems with the military, but let's not forget that it is the most dominant force on the planet. Probably only the Israelis have comparable technology ( if not better). I would have us maintain that edge to help save lives.

[Apache]

Equipment is one thing. Support-training-courageous pilots are another. Ill bet on the good ole USA.

Let us hope and pray that it never comes to actually needing these in a war with the old Warsaw pact countries or any commie stinking rat plane.

[cincibuck]

It's not a case of if the Raptor is excellent... it is. But what do we need now? We need troops on the ground. We need an updated A-10, we need more drones, we need low and slow and the Air Force gives us the Raptor, a plane so expensive it will swallow the AF's budget whole. It's the same story on the Navy side. The Marine's harriers are well past their prime but the Navy is buying the sea version of the 22.

[BrutusBobcat]

Just hypothesizing, but we do have a few client/customer states out there flying F-15s. Maybe the F-22 was built to either A) remind them that we're still the top dog and can take their entire Air Force down in an afternoon, or B) have an upgrade path to sell to them in a few years once their F-15 fleet has aged.

Military equipment sales are both an integral part of our economy and our foreign policy.