Ex-Alaska Governor Sarah Palin (Official)

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by Bucklion

Not necissarily true. For example, I could say "Gator, that was a stupid post" but that would not be the same thing as me saying "Gator, you are a stupid person". One is judging a specific thing he said, the other is judging him as a person entirely from one thing he said. (Er, sorry Gator, I have no idea why you came to mind there... )

Put another way, we've all done things we are not proud of. If we try to be good people and do right, that doesn't mean we are any less proud of those particular things, it just means we hope at the end of the day those things don't define us as people. If anything, the message of Jesus isn't moral relativism ignoring bad things you did, it's redemption depsite the bad things you did.

Good points. My short one is that Jesus said "Love thy Neighbor." He did not say "Love only thy neighbor who is a Christian and a strict observer of my rules." How to show that neighborly love when you disagree with the neighbor is the question.

[Steve19]

Originally Posted by mooktarr

I don't see a difference, a person is judged as a person by his actions.

I think that is what is meant by judging a tree by its fruits but recent research shows that people actually make decisions through two routes. A cognitive evaluation route and an automatic route.

Based on cues such as clothing, race, gender, and appearance, research clearly shows that people assess the social identities of others and attribute values, personality traits and expected behaviors to them pre-cognitively. That is, unless we actively take steps to evaluate differently, we judge others in fractions of a second and before we actively think about it and react to the other person in response to the way that we have judged them.

When I read these research results, I doubted the findings. But as I read them, I was waiting in the car for someone else and an obvious meths abuser tapped on my window asking for money. I realized that my reaction was immediate and without thought.

Again, others here are far more qualified to talk about religious matters than I am, but my reading of the Bible is that Christ is telling his followers to observe and evaluate behavior and its effects on the individual and society but to avoid judging the person who commits the behavior.

If we judge others we automatically set boundaries on who they are that preclude them changing. The difference in evaluating behaviors and judging others is subtle but consequential.

"That person is a thief" leads to a very different view of others and oneself than "I've caught that person stealing twice."

The first statement refers to a person who has a fixed quality or personality trait. The second statement refers to a person who has not only stolen something, a done so twice.

I don't know too many people who would catch somebody stealing twice and not refer to them as a thief. However, if a person is stealing because of the need to survive due to the recent loss of a job and overwhelming hunger, only the second statement provides a route for the person to reject the undesirable behavior. As people live up or down to our expectations of them, it is an important distinction.

Again, I'm not standing on a soapbox, just observing my understanding of the difference between the two viewpoints as I have read the Bible recently.

[Padraig]

The play, Les Miserables is a very good illustration of the general point of your last two posts imo.

[osucollegebuck]

bump for the First Dude

[mooktarr]

Originally Posted by Steve19

I think that is what is meant by judging a tree by its fruits but recent research shows that people actually make decisions through two routes. A cognitive evaluation route and an automatic route.

Based on cues such as clothing, race, gender, and appearance, research clearly shows that people assess the social identities of others and attribute values, personality traits and expected behaviors to them pre-cognitively. That is, unless we actively take steps to evaluate differently, we judge others in fractions of a second and before we actively think about it and react to the other person in response to the way that we have judged them.

When I read these research results, I doubted the findings. But as I read them, I was waiting in the car for someone else and an obvious meths abuser tapped on my window asking for money. I realized that my reaction was immediate and without thought.

Again, others here are far more qualified to talk about religious matters than I am, but my reading of the Bible is that Christ is telling his followers to observe and evaluate behavior and its effects on the individual and society but to avoid judging the person who commits the behavior.

If we judge others we automatically set boundaries on who they are that preclude them changing. The difference in evaluating behaviors and judging others is subtle but consequential.

"That person is a thief" leads to a very different view of others and oneself than "I've caught that person stealing twice."

The first statement refers to a person who has a fixed quality or personality trait. The second statement refers to a person who has not only stolen something, a done so twice.

I don't know too many people who would catch somebody stealing twice and not refer to them as a thief. However, if a person is stealing because of the need to survive due to the recent loss of a job and overwhelming hunger, only the second statement provides a route for the person to reject the undesirable behavior. As people live up or down to our expectations of them, it is an important distinction.

Again, I'm not standing on a soapbox, just observing my understanding of the difference between the two viewpoints as I have read the Bible recently.

I never judge by appearance as you can't tell a book by it's cover.
I learned a long time ago to wait for behavior to see what a person is.

Anyone who steals is a thief. A strong, straight up person would find other means to survive. In my thinking a person has character and honesty or they don't.
JMO but anyone who judges on "cues" or appearance is lacking.

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by mooktarr

I never judge by appearance as you can't tell a book by it's cover.
I learned a long time ago to wait for behavior to see what a person is.

Anyone who steals is a thief. A strong, straight up person would find other means to survive. In my thinking a person has character and honesty or they don't.
JMO but anyone who judges on "cues" or appearance is lacking.

You haven't hung around with many drug addicts have you?

"Character" has [censored] to do with it.

[Buckeye86]

Originally Posted by mooktarr

JMO but anyone who judges on "cues" or appearance is lacking.

so if you were walking alone down a street at night and a homeless gentleman was walking towards you flipping through a wallet with a rolex on his wrist, you wouldn't think about crossing to the other side of the street?

[mooktarr]

Originally Posted by Buckeye86

so if you were walking alone down a street at night and a homeless gentleman was walking towards you flipping through a wallet with a rolex on his wrist, you wouldn't think about crossing to the other side of the street?

How do you know he is homeless? and no I wouldn't.

[mooktarr]

Originally Posted by Gatorubet

You haven't hung around with many drug addicts have you?

"Character" has [censored] to do with it.

I haven't met any drug addicts who are straight up people. How do you tell if a guy standing across the street is a drug addict ? Oh wait it must be the sign he is wearing "I am a [censored]ing drug addict watch out for me"

[Buckeye86]

Originally Posted by mooktarr

How do you know he is homeless? and no I wouldn't.

do you live in a city? you can tell when people are homeless, or at least trying to look like they are

tattered, dirty clothing is the most obvious thing, they are usually shaking a cup full of change and mumbling, it's really not that hard to tell

[mooktarr]

Originally Posted by Buckeye86

do you live in a city? you can tell when people are homeless, or at least trying to look like they are

tattered, dirty clothing is the most obvious thing, they are usually shaking a cup full of change and mumbling, it's really not that hard to tell

My Bad , I didn't know you are into stereotyping people by their appearance.

[Buckeye86]

Originally Posted by mooktarr

My Bad , I didn't know you are into stereotyping people by their appearance.

you didn't answer whether you live in a city or not

[mooktarr]

Originally Posted by Buckeye86

you didn't answer whether you live in a city or not

yes I live in a city, does that mean I'm a homeless person too? or do I need the tattered clothes ?
How about a kid in tattered clothes, is he homeless too? at what age do they stop being kids and turn into homeless person ?

In my city I've seen beggars in rags that pull in $30,000 plus a year and actually life in a real house .

[Buckeye86]

Originally Posted by mooktarr

In my city I've seen beggars in rags that pull in $30,000 plus a year and actually life in a real house .

are you their accountant?

when you make decisions based on the way people look while you are walking down the street it is not judging them or stereotyping them, it is making a rational decision based on your surroundings

but whatever, you can stay on your high horse if you want, I really don't care, have fun keeping track of how much beggars in rags make in your city, it must be a bitch counting all of that change

p.s. why in the hell are we talking about this in the Palin thread?

[Gatorubet]

Originally Posted by mooktarr

I haven't met any drug addicts who are straight up people. How do you tell if a guy standing across the street is a drug addict ? Oh wait it must be the sign he is wearing "I am a [censored]ing drug addict watch out for me"

My best friend of twenty years, and a better man than I am and maybe you are Mook, got prescribed (and hooked) on oxycontin when he hurt his back running marathons. He wound up spiraling into an addictive abyss.

Until he became an addict there was not a better dad, person, or Christian that I knew. "Straight up" person you might say. He wound up stealing from his kids piggy banks to buy drugs. (Thankfull he bought pre-paid full college tuitions for his kids when they were born)

I just don't think that it is as black and white as you think Mook, although I admit that I shared your views until a few years ago. His deal sure changed my mind on a lot of things. "Character" is only one component of how we deal with things. A lot of it is luck. Some is our support system. Some is merely how we were raised, which we had nothing to do with if you think about it. Some things are genetic pharmacological deals.

Anyway, I now think the world is a lot grayer than I thought it was.