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Political Conversation and Debate This forum is not a temporary one. It will exist up to, and after the presidential elections. Some people want to talk or even argue politics, other's don't. Let's see if we can apply some reason and understanding to the debate.

 
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'BusNative View Post
I don't know... lets assume that half of americans are taxpayers... that puts taxpayers at, what, 170MM people? 3 million S-corps would be just under 2% of that. I know that not every small business is an S-Corp, but many S-Corp owners have duplicative ownership, etc., and not every S-Corp nets $250k+ to its owners... the 2% number - the number of small business owning taxpayers that will be affected by a $250+ tax increase - could be fairly accurate - or at least not materially off.
You're completely missing my point... and... you're right, I have no idea what the average schedule K profit (or loss, whichever) amount would be... (Indeed comparing the number of taxpayers vs. Schedule K filers is a pointless exercise in that they report losses as well-- hell, a lot of these businesses do lose money too and probably get a lot of people out of paying taxes). The point is that I got 2 schedule K's last year... AND I have a full time job.... meaning that if my full time job makes me 100K, I don't need to have a 250K in schedule K distributions to be impacted by the rate hike.

But, since I have a full time job, does that make me not a small business owner?

(Further... let's say one of my businesses netted 1.25 million for me last year... 3% is one FTE at 30K that the govt is taxing me for. And regardless of the number of small business owners impacted... 1 million in revenue isn't a lot....)

I guess, part of my problem with the CNN article, and I wasn't clear was this ridiculous statement in it:

Quote:
But most people who file those forms don't run a business for a living: Those forms are also used to report income from freelance and consulting work, real-estate rentals, and most other non-salary sources.
Real Estate rentals, not a business?

I'm in now way saying that McCain's number is right either... but... this 2% things seems VERY cooked.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by DaytonBuck View Post
Why does that make it ok?

Just what we need during a recovery - a massive increase on the taxes of the very most productive people of the economy........
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 10:32 AM
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Why is Joe, and all the details about his life the media are digging up now, more important than the answer Obama gave to Joe?s question? I think some of you, but especially the media is missing the point. So we aren't allowed to raise a simple question to a candidate who wants to be president without being totally ripped a new one by the media?
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 10:48 AM
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The heck with Joe the plumber; I'll call this person to handle my "plumbing problems".

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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJnTN View Post
Why is Joe, and all the details about his life the media are digging up now, more important than the answer Obama gave to Joe?s question? I think some of you, but especially the media is missing the point. So we aren't allowed to raise a simple question to a candidate who wants to be president without being totally ripped a new one by the media?
Diversion... the real story is Obama's response (like you said) but the media is doing what it does best.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 12:10 PM
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John Seery: Joe the Plumber Meets Sam the Gas Station Guy
Quote:
Now 38 years old, Sam owns more than 100 gas stations in southern California and 25 restaurant franchises. He has over 800 employees working for him. He has four kids in a happy marriage. He's a devout churchgoer. He's a proud American and lets you know that.

We started talking politics. "You know what," he said, "I'd really like some reporter to come and ask me my views on the election. Why don't they ever seek out guys like me? I got something to tell them. Professor, why isn't the LA Times or somebody asking me for my opinion?"

I probed a bit. "So what is it you want to say to them?"

Sam opened the verbal floodgates. "Hey, I've always voted Republican. For the first time in my life I'm going to vote for a Democrat. I'm voting for Obama."

"Why's that?"

"My gas station businesses are hurting. I make the same profit margin--5 to 8 cents per gallon--no matter whether the price of gas is $1.99 per gallon or $4.99. The big oil companies are the ones raking in the profits when prices go up, not me. I can make money on gas only through volume sales--and if people are hurting, I make less on gas. Or I start to lose money, like now. Where I make money, though, is when they come inside and buy discretionary items--food, drinks, lottery tickets. Right now, people aren't buying. I know 20 of my gas station colleagues are about to declare bankruptcy. It's bad."

"So I'm fed up with the Republicans. Tax cuts for the rich, the war--all that stuff. The middle class needs help. I'm finally convinced. I'm going for Obama. First time in my life, I tell you."

I asked him about paying higher taxes.

"I don't care about that. If I'm making money, I don't care. I'll pay my taxes. But I'm not going to make any money if the middle-class guy doesn't have money in his pocket to buy my gas or my food. I don't need the big tax cut right now. That's not going to bring the customers into my gas stations."

Joe versus Sam. You could line up economists spouting elegant theories for each side, but the basic arguments can probably be reduced to Joe's and Sam's respective positions on very gut levels. Joe's never made $250,000, but he feels that if he ever reaches that threshold, he shouldn't be "penalized" for his success. He seems to believe that cutting taxes for wealthy individuals somehow serves his current financial interests and his aspirations for the future. Sam's already lived those trickle-down and dream-up Republican talking points but now rejects them with hard-won conviction.

Were the two of them to meet and strike up a conversation, side by side on adjacent treadmills, I dare say that Sam would be giving Joe an earful, not the other way around.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 12:13 PM
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Think Progress ? ?€˜Joe The Plumber?€™ Comes Clean: ?€˜I Would Be Receiving Obama?€™s Tax Cuts?€™
Quote:
As ThinkProgress and many others noted yesterday, the premise of Joe "the Plumber" Wurzelbacher's complaints about Barack Obama's tax plan was ill-informed. Contrary to Wurzelbacher's claims, "neither his personal taxes nor those of the business where he works are likely to rise if Mr. Obama's tax plan were to go into effect."
As CBS News reported, even "Joe The Plumber" acknowledges this fact now:
So today, Joe, who said he makes much less than $250,000, reluctantly admitted Obama would lower his taxes.
"I would, if you believe him, I would be receiving his tax cuts," Wurzelbacher said.
Bloomberg reports that "one other problem in making Wurzelbacher a symbol of the overtaxed" is that -- even if he did earn an adjusted gross income of $280,000 --"he would pay just $773 more in taxes under Obama's plan than McCain's." That amount would hardly deal a crippling blow to his potential small business.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 12:37 PM
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Stumper : Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Quote:
On Sunday, Wurzelbacher told Obama that, after 15 years of working as a plumber, he's now preparing to purchase a company that makes more than $250,000 a year. "Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?" he asked. As anyone who's been following the election knows, Obama plans to cut taxes for everyone making under $200,000, to leave tax rates for those making between $200,000 and $250,000 alone and to raise taxes on those making more than $250,000 to pre-George W. Bush levels. In his answer, Obama assumed that Wurzelbacher was currently earning more than $250,000 and went on to explain his plan. But the thing is, Wurzelbacher admits he isn't actually making $250,000--and he won't be anytime soon. "Would you be in that [above-$250,000] category?" CBS's Katie Couric asked Wurzelbacher last night. "Not ... presently," he said.

So how much is Joe making? Right now, he's still a plumber, so he's probably raking in about $40,000 to $50,000, according to government estimates. When he buys that small business, he's likely to earn more--but not $250,000. That's because $250,000 is the amount of revenue the business is said to pull in; after expenses--equipment, employees, etc.--his personal income (salary plus profits) will be significantly less. Let's say a still-healthy $100,000.
How, you ask, would each of candidates change Wurzelbacher's tax bill if elected president? According a recent study by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Institute--which broke down Obama's and McCain's proposed tax plans by income bracket--Joe the Plumber (the guy making, say, $50,000 a year) would see his taxes slashed by $319 under McCain and $1,042 under Obama. That's a $723 difference. Meanwhile, Joe the Small-Business Owner (the guy making $100,000 a year) would pay $1,009 less under McCain and $1,290 less under Obama, for a difference of $181.

This presents us with an interesting--and illustrative--case study. Whether or not Wurzelbacher buys his business, he's guaranteeed to get a larger tax cut from Obama than McCain--and yet he still prefers McCain's plan to Obama's. Ultimately, then, we end up with two potential voting blocs. First there are the people who earn less than $250,000 and want the largest possible tax cut for themselves--a group that doesn't include Joe the Plumber OR Joe the Small-Business Owner. Then there are the people--like Joe--who earn less than $250,000 a year, but are willing to turn down the bigger tax cut for one of three reasons. Some are trickle-down/free-market adherents who believe that larger tax cuts for those richer than themselves will best serve the economy. Others simply don't trust Obama to keep his word. And then there are those who identify with the wealthy, believe they're bound strike it rich someday and don't want to pay higher taxes when they do.
Both groups--Group Joe and Group Non-Joe--have valid positions. But the question facing McCain--who hopes to make taxes the centerpiece of his closing argument--is which group is bigger. All told, voters making less than $250,000 a year represent 98 percent of the electorate, so they'll be picking the next president. Traditionally, many of these folks resent the idea of having to pay more money if they ever become part of the other two percent, so they side with Republicans on taxes. After all, that's why George H.W. Bush closed the gap with Bill Clinton in the final days of the 1992 race. McCain may still benefit from a similar shift. But one has to wonder whether the traditional GOP message on taxes has lost some of its luster amid a financial crisis that suddenly makes it significantly easier for people like Joe the Plumber--if not Joe himself--to picture themselves earning much less in the future, not much more. In which case Obama--who offers more people more money more quickly--would stand to gain.
Developing, as they say ...
UPDATE, Oct. 17: The Wall Street Journal's Jonathan Weisman has more detail on the company Wurzelbacher hope to buy someday:
The company, A.W. Newell Inc., with two employees, Al Newell and Mr. Wurzelbacher, reported sales this year of $100,000. On sales of that volume, a firm that size could expect to earn about a 6% profit, or $6,000, after salaries and costs are taken out, according to Lee Smither, managing director of FMI Corp., a Raleigh, N.C., management-consulting firm for construction contractors. The average income of plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters in 2006 was $48,002, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Earlier, I'd taken Wurzelbacher's claim that A.W. Newell, Inc. "makes" more than $250,000 a year to mean that sales exceed $250,000. Turns out Wurzelbacher's statement was misleading: $250,000 is the net worth of the company. Sales are only $100,000. Which means that Joe the Small-Business Owner won't rake in anywhere near $100,000; he'll simply net an additional $6,000 (i.e. the company's profits) on top of his old salary of about $40,000. Ultimately, then, Joe the Small-Business Owner would be in the same boat as Joe the Plumber: that is, getting a tax cut of $1,042 from Obama and $319 from McCain. For Wurzelbacher to take home the $200,000-$250,000 required to trigger Obama's proposed tax increases, according to the Journal, "a mom-and-pop plumbing company like Newell would have to clear $5 million in annual sales."
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkBuck View Post
Just what we need during a recovery - a massive increase on the taxes of the very most productive people of the economy........
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Old 10-17-2008, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MuckFich06
that doesnt include mccains health care credit...
but, kudos to obama and his people for spinning this one. the original intent was to capitalize on obamas goof as he misspoke/gaffed on higher taxes and people doing their part to pay more. in tennis terms mccain returned obamas forehand volley with a weak smash and obama looks like hes got mccain on the run with his backhand, game, set...
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORD_Buckeye View Post
"Joe the Plumber, Sam the Gas Station Guy, and Paris Hilton walk into a bar..."

This [censored] is getting comical
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORD_Buckeye View Post

And you think the Hilton family pays anywhere near the top bracket? Now THATS funny.....

One thing the left just never has figured out - our current tax system (progressive on income) PRESERVES the class stucture. If you HAVE wealth (not MAKE money, but HAVE wealth), you pay nothing. If you try to gain wealth by being productive through income, the govt will make it harder and harder for you to escape your current class by taxing you at greater and greater rates.

The ultra rich LOVE our current tax system. We tax the productive, NOT the rich......
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkBuck View Post
And you think the Hilton family pays anywhere near the top bracket? Now THATS funny.....

One thing the left just never has figured out - our current tax system (progressive on income) PRESERVES the class stucture. If you HAVE wealth (not MAKE money, but HAVE wealth), you pay nothing. If you try to gain wealth by being productive through income, the govt will make it harder and harder for you to escape your current class by taxing you at greater and greater rates.

The ultra rich LOVE our current tax system. We tax the productive, NOT the rich......
So, then to truly get the "wealthy" to pay their fair share of taxes, I'm assuming that you're a proponent of higher capital gains taxes (how the wealthy take their annual incomes) and stringent estate taxes at the federal level not to mention a total revamping of how the federal tax code treats trusts.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 03:22 PM
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I want a sales tax to capture the off the books revenue. Drug dealers, non-filers, etc. buy stuff, they pay taxes on it. Even if it is 5% and you reduce the traditional tax structure rates by 5% you will recover more $$. Why not try it one year and see how much extra we rake in?
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2008, 03:30 PM
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I see the thugs in the media are doing their best to smear old Joe the plumber. Funny how Obama's huddle of unsavory friends were never covered in such fashion. Old Sarah Palin - well we found out her daughter was knocked up 2 days after her nomination was announced yet it took the same media 2 months to figure out John Edwards had an illegitimate kid.

Mark Foley - Media all over it.
Tim Mahoney - Me no care.

Glad to see old media dead after this election. Thanks for the fair coverage.

And oh yeah.....imagine, a guy from Toledo that owes back taxes? The nerve.....
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better than sharpton, d-bag, joe not the joe, joe the plumber, no hand outs, not the war correspondent


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