Joe the Plumber: Official Thread

[NewYorkBuck]

Originally Posted by 'BusNative

Have you read the article that leads this thread? Just curious what you're opinion is. Your numbers don't jive with that article, nor with the national tax statistics vis-a-vis the 95th percentile of taxpayers.

Bus - because that article is based upon rock hard statistics like "found that only 14% of respondents said they had $200,000 or more in annual income."

Have you ever spoken to a small business owner and asked them how much they make? 99% of them (and I am one of the right now) will tell you that "they dont make anything / dont take a salary / etc.," but yet somehow these same people still account for half the millionaires in the country. I dont care who tells you, the primary goal of a large corporation is to increase the share price, but the primary goal of a small business is to minimize taxes. I just got back from a conference where there were over 200 small business owners doing what I do, and as wealthy as they were, not one of them told me that they were making any money. Not one of them. Small business owners fear the tax man like the plague, and consequently they have the right to fear one of these candidates far more than the other......

[MaxBuck]

Originally Posted by NewYorkBuck

... the primary goal of a small business is to minimize taxes. I just got back from a conference where there were over 200 small business owners doing what I do, and as wealthy as they were, not one of them told me that they were making any money. Not one of them. Small business owners fear the tax man like the plague, and consequently they have the right to fear one of these candidates far more than the other......

As a small businessman myself, I generally agree with the first of these premises, though it's not so much the goal to minimize taxes as it is to maximize post-tax income. Actually, for most independent business people the real goal is to maximize cash flow, but that is a subject for another day.

I disagree completely that one candidate is more to be feared than the other as regards tax policy. The marginal individual tax rate is pretty unimportant to most sole proprietors; what's really important is the menu of deductions, abatements and exemptions we can avail ourselves of. Neither candidate has really said what they plan to do there, but in any event where one loophole closes another usually opens.

[ORD_Buckeye]

Originally Posted by NewYorkBuck

Nope - single biggest factor contributing to someone being a millionaire is owning their own business.

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/105626/10-Things-Millionaires-Won't-Tell-You


See #3 - half of all millionaires made their money by running their own business. So as I predicted, it seems the higher your wealth, the more likely you are to have gotten there by running your own business. (The truly "rich" are that 3% who get their money inherited through trusts and the like, but as mentioned they will never pay taxes in our current system.)

So it seems like the left is left with the "inconvenient truth" that their taxes on 250k and above will directly lead to job destruction, as small business are responsible for most of the job growth in this country, especially right now as is shown by the following article.

Sorry, NYB, but that does nothing to prove your point that the 4x ratio of small business owners extrapolates upwards to the 250K annual income level and beyond. It merely states that half of those who are millionaires (i.e. have accumulated 1MM+ in assets) achieved this through small business ownership. By that definition, someone who has been plugging away at a small plumbing company for 20 years, never made over 100K in a single year but was smart with his money, has a large amount of home equity and a decent valuation on his company could easily quality, yet he's not much closer to making 250K a year than he was when he started his company

Even if half of all "millionaire creation" is the result of owning one's own business, the article gives no distinction as to whether they are "small" businesses or not--something that seems to be a rather vague notion and one that hasn't really been addressed here.

What I would really need to see before capitulating is first a definition of what constitutes "small business" in "America and secondly, what percentage of annual income owners at the 250K, 500K and 1MM levels are small business owners under that definition. Even then, I'd like to see what proportion of those fall into such categories as self-incorporated surgeons, consulting architects and the like.

The heart of this argument is whether guys like JTP would benefit from Obama's or McCain's tax policies. You've shown me nothing to change my belief that guys like Joe the Plumber are so far off from ever sniffing 250K that the answer falls heavily in Obama's favor.

[NewYorkBuck]

Originally Posted by ORD_Buckeye

Sorry, NYB, but that does nothing to prove your point that the 4x ratio of small business owners extrapolates upwards to the 250K annual income level and beyond. It merely states that half of those who are millionaires (i.e. have accumulated 1MM+ in assets) achieved this through small business ownership. By that definition, someone who has been plugging away at a small plumbing company for 20 years, never made over 100K in a single year but was smart with his money, has a large amount of home equity and a decent valuation on his company could easily quality, yet he's not much closer to making 250K a year than he was when he started his company

Even if half of all "millionaire creation" is the result of owning one's own business, the article gives no distinction as to whether they are "small" businesses or not--something that seems to be a rather vague notion and one that hasn't really been addressed here.

What I would really need to see before capitulating is first a definition of what constitutes "small business" in "America and secondly, what percentage of annual income owners at the 250K, 500K and 1MM levels are small business owners under that definition. Even then, I'd like to see what proportion of those fall into such categories as self-incorporated surgeons, consulting architects and the like.

The heart of this argument is whether guys like JTP would benefit from Obama's or McCain's tax policies. You've shown me nothing to change my belief that guys like Joe the Plumber are so far off from ever sniffing 250K that the answer falls heavily in Obama's favor.

Does NOTHING to prove? So you admit there is no correlation between income and assets? Great - you must now agree that we need a tax OTHER than income to capture the truly wealthy. Cool. Glad we finally agree on that.

On you other point -

SBA: Office of Advocacy - Business Owners As High Income Earners And Wealth Holders

While it is true that small business owners accrue wealth far more than non business owners, it is also true that small business owners are TWICE as likely to be high income than non SBO.

So yes, sadly, the Obama tax will hit job creators quite hard, ceteris parabis......

[NewYorkBuck]

Originally Posted by MaxBuck

The marginal individual tax rate is pretty unimportant to most sole proprietors; what's really important is the menu of deductions, abatements and exemptions we can avail ourselves of. Neither candidate has really said what they plan to do there, but in any event where one loophole closes another usually opens.

Under our current system, I cede that there is a lot of truth in what you say here.

[ORD_Buckeye]

Originally Posted by NewYorkBuck

Does NOTHING to prove? So you admit there is no correlation between income and assets? Great - you must now agree that we need a tax OTHER than income to capture the truly wealthy. Cool. Glad we finally agree on that.

Where do I say that there is NO correlation between income and assets. I state that there is a very specious correlation between being a millionaire and earning 250K a year. In other words, while most members of the latter club are--or will quickly become-millionaires, it's quite possible to have joined the ranks of the former without ever having sniffed at the latter club.

If the argument places the 250K annual income as the threshold of whether one's economic self interest (if only in the limited sense of one's tax bill for the next 4-8 years which is the crux of this thread and the whole JTP debate) lies with Obama or McCain, then simply being a millionaire in no way proves things one way or another.

One can very easily be a millionaire (assets), particularly if one owns a small, skilled labor business, yet never get close to that 250K annual income.

[ORD_Buckeye]

Originally Posted by NewYorkBuck

On you other point -

SBA: Office of Advocacy - Business Owners As High Income Earners And Wealth Holders

While it is true that small business owners accrue wealth far more than non business owners, it is also true that small business owners are TWICE as likely to be high income than non SBO.

So yes, sadly, the Obama tax will hit job creators quite hard, ceteris parabis......

Do you have a link to the complete study. The abstract just says "high income" earners. Outside of the McCain campaign, I'm assuming that the concept of "high income earners" is somewhat lower than 250K/year. Even with whatever threshold the SBA is using to determine "high income" they're finding only a 2-1 ratio of small business owners, which is half your stated 4:1 ratio at the 100K level.

[Tresselbeliever]

Don't want to sound alarmist or anything, but with the recent news of another interest rate cut coming that would bring the nominal interest rate to the lowest level ever, you got to wonder, what will be the greater disincentive in the coming years for small businesses, or for all businesses for that matter: tax rates or inflation/currency debasement?

Pretend that you are the CEO of Dell. And with the recent slowdown in the US, you are trying to diversify your sales around the world. You look out the window, and there's Ben Bernanke dropping straps of cash from his helicopter, because that's what he's essentially trying to do, expanding the money supply to drive up consumption. You gotta be thinking to yourself, what's going to happen to IBM if my corporate profits in the dollar take a beating from inflationary pressures, which will restrict my ability to make capital investments abroad in the coming years?

What's going to happen is that Dell would engage in the practice of price transferring. Dell is going to assemble its laptops in the US and 'sell' them to its subsidiary in China at a price that is very close to the real cost, say $50. But once the laptop gets to the subsidiary distributor in China, the subsidiary will sell for the market price of around $100 throughout Asia. So in essence, the $50 margin is realized in the Yuan, as opposed to the dollar, because of the expectation that the dollar will decline in the intermediate future. The consequences would be very clear: tax revenues from Dell would be going to the communist party, rather than the IRS, even though the tax policy in the US may become more favorable in the coming years.

Can you really blame Dell if they decided to hedge their currency risk this way? After all, it's Bernanke and Paulson trying to print and borrow money like crazy to save everybody.

['BusNative]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time - Blogs from CNN.com

Joe the Plumber open to 2010 run
Posted: 06:05 PM ET

From CNN Ticker Producer Alexander Mooney



(CNN) - Could Joe the Plumber become Joe the congressman?
Joe Wurzelbacher, the most famous plumber in America thanks to John McCain and Sarah Palin, told conservative talk radio host Laura Ingraham Friday he's considering a run for Congress in 2010.

That would pit Wurzelbacher against longtime Democratic Rep. Marcy Kaptur for Ohio's 9th district on the state's northern border, which includes Toledo and Sandusky. "I'll tell you what, we'd definitely be in one heck of a fight, Marcy Kaptur definitely has a following in this area," he said of the possibility. "But, you know, I'd be up for it."

Wurzelbacher's chances would likely be slim. Kaptur has served in the district for 25 years, and remains a popular figure there. She won reelection in 2006 with nearly 75 percent of the vote and is expected to easily sail through another reelection this year...

[MaxBuck]

Joe Wurzelbacher, the most famous plumber in America thanks to John McCain and Sarah Palin, told conservative talk radio host Laura Ingraham Friday he's considering a run for Congress in 2010.

Well, he'd be roughly as well-qualified for Congress as Palin is for VPOTUS. So he's got that going for him.

I have no clue what the fascination is with $150-per-hour "common men" who cannot keep their butt cracks concealed.

[jimotis4heisman]

The Columbus Dispatch : Government computers used to find information on Joe the Plumber

Government computers used to find information on Joe the Plumber
Investigators trying to determine whether access was illegal
Friday, October 24, 2008 8:57 PM
By Randy Ludlow


The Columbus Dispatch
"State and local officials are investigating if state and law-enforcement computer systems were illegally accessed when they were tapped for personal information about "Joe the Plumber." Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher became part of the national political lexicon Oct. 15 when Republican presidential candidate John McCain mentioned him frequently during his final debate with Democrat Barack Obama.
The 34-year-old from the Toledo suburb of Holland is held out by McCain as an example of an American who would be harmed by Obama's tax proposals.
Public records requested by The Dispatch disclose that information on Wurzelbacher's driver's license or his sport-utility vehicle was pulled from the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles database three times shortly after the debate.
Information on Wurzelbacher was accessed by accounts assigned to the office of Ohio Attorney General Nancy H. Rogers, the Cuyahoga County Child Support Enforcement Agency and the Toledo Police Department.



cont...

[Wingate1217]

From the same article as posted by Jim.....

On Oct. 17, BMV information on Wurzelbacher was obtained through an account used by the Cuyahoga County Child Support Enforcement Agency in Cleveland, records show.
Mary Denihan, spokeswoman for the county agency, said the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services contacted the agency today and requested an investigation of the access to Wurzelbacher's information. Cuyahoga County court records do not show any child-support cases involving Wurzelbacher.
The State Highway Patrol, which administers the Law Enforcement Automated Data System in Ohio, asked Toledo police to explain why it pulled BMV information on Wurzelbacher within 48 hours of the debate, Hunter said.
The LEADS system also can be used to check for warrants and criminal histories, but such checks would not be reflected on the records obtained by The Dispatch.
Sgt. Tim Campbell, a Toledo police spokesman, said he could not provide any information because the department only had learned of the State Highway Patrol inquiry today.

[jimotis4heisman]

looks like they tried to pull info to find out if he was a dead beat dad also.

DispatchPolitics : Inspector general investigating access to Joe the Plumber's personal information Columbus Dispatch Politics

Personal information on "Joe the Plumber" was sought through the state's child-support computer in a check run from the main offices of the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services.

Ohio Inspector General Thomas P. Charles confirmed today that he is investigating the incident. He declined to provide details.
The inquiry on Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher was run through the Support Enforcement Tracking System from the state department's offices in downtown Columbus.
The use of a state computer system to look for information on the newly minted presidential campaign fixture is the fourth to be uncovered by The Dispatch.

cont...

[jimotis4heisman]

to head back to the corp tax issue

Fewer than a quarter of insurance industry professionals polled by BestWeek U.S./Canada believe U.S. insurers and reinsurers can compete with firms based in low-tax domiciles, and more than half endorsed tax law changes to address the situation. In an online survey gauging industry opinion on a topic that in recent months has seen attention on the presidential campaign trail, just 24.2% of respondents said U.S. firms could still compete with domiciles like Bermuda, while 21.5% said though primary insurance was still competitive, the reinsurance market was not.

[Steve19]

Just have to say that if this guy thinks that his 15 minutes of fame is going to qualify him for Congress, then I have an important vacation home opportunity to discuss with him...