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Political Conversation and Debate This forum is not a temporary one. It will exist up to, and after the presidential elections. Some people want to talk or even argue politics, other's don't. Let's see if we can apply some reason and understanding to the debate.

 
View Poll Results: Should the US government provide financial assistance to the Detroit automakers
Yes. Like it or not, a lot of jobs are on the line. We don't have a choice. 3 6.98%
Yes, if they have a good business plan. Gov't must get equity, have oversight. 7 16.28%
No, help the affected workers with new job training, incentivise job creation. 4 9.30%
No, they have had too many chances. Let the markets work. Let them go bankrupt. 29 67.44%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 02-21-2009, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MaxBuck View Post
This is certainly one point of view. And though I'm no fan of unions, there's another point of view, that being that the companies agreed to those compensation and benefit terms. If you argue that the unions coerced management, I'd agree, but it's clear that management similarly coerced its labor for time immemorial.

I guess I am saying this not to take unions off the hook, but rather to share the blame with management. God knows there's plenty of blame to go around.
Yep.. Mgt. made bad calls and wasted money as well. The difference is those problems can be corrected, the systemic overpaying of wages/benefits is much more difficult to change (in the retiree category it is near immposible to change once payments begin).
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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2009, 07:35 AM
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Tax My Products, Please - WSJ.com
Quote:
Imagine a Google executive demanding a tax on software, or General Mills asking for a tax on wheat. That's where we now are in the U.S. auto industry, with Ford CEO Alan Mulally believing he has little choice but to seek a tax on the very fuel that powers his products.
Mr. Mulally was a guest recently at this newspaper's ECO:nomics conference in Santa Barbara, where he outlined his efforts to revamp the struggling car maker. He said one problem is that America didn't have an "integrated energy policy." On the one hand, the government "regulated" smaller cars by "mandating average fuel mileage improvements," but on the other hand "with low fuel prices and low interest rates over the years, the U.S. consumers have chosen generally larger vehicles."
...
"I have fuel-efficient vehicles parked at my dealerships as far as the eye can see. I can't give them away." He figures a tax that guarantees a gas-price floor of $4 a gallon is a "good start." Mr. Mulally
continued...
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2009, 07:36 AM
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Obama to Avoid Auto Bankruptcies - WSJ.com
Quote:
The leaders of President Barack Obama's auto task force are focused on restructuring General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC outside of bankruptcy court, despite suggestions from some experts that a Chapter 11 filing would be the best way to revamp their troubled operations.
Steven Rattner, a private-equity executive leading the team, said Monday that "I don't think that bankruptcy is necessarily a better place for any company."
"It sometimes becomes a necessary place for some companies, but it's certainly not a desired place and it is certainly not our goal to see these companies in bankruptcy, particularly considering the consumer-facing nature of their businesses," Mr. Rattner said in an interview.
...
Administration officials also said the team doesn't plan to recall early the $17.4 billion in government loans given to GM and Chrysler -- something allowed under the loans' terms if the companies don't prove by March 31 that they can be viable long term.
The administration officials said the two auto makers had already spent the cash, and that asking for the funds to be returned immediately would trigger their collapse

continued...
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2009, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman View Post
Funny thing about pouring money down a rathole: if you put your hand in to try to get it back, you're going to get bit. And the rats are probably rabid, so the outcome will be very painful indeed.
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2009, 10:10 PM
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Auto Task Force Set to Back More Loans -- With Strings - WSJ.com
Quote:
President Barack Obama last month handed his auto-industry team a seemingly impossible task: to engineer the most complicated industrial restructuring ever attempted by the federal government, and to do it fast.
With almost no experience in the car business, the team's dozen core members have undergone a crash course in the myriad woes plaguing the U.S. auto industry. Within days, just over a month after setting to work, they'll begin announcing decisions.
Interviews with task-force members indicate that the administration doesn't want to let General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC slip into bankruptcy protection, a course advocated by some critics of the industry. Instead, the task force is expected to say that it sees viable futures for both GM and Chrysler, but only if there are sacrifices from their managements, unions and GM's bondholders. The team will also lay out a firm timeline for action.
The government is prepared to lend the companies more money. The two companies have requested $22 billion more -- including $9 billion for the second quarter
...
more bailouts for detroit. at some point theyll have been bailed out enough to pave the streets with gold...
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 03-29-2009, 05:21 PM
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Rick Wagoner from GM is stepping down. It may have been a stipluation of more Federal aid.
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 03-29-2009, 07:51 PM
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Keep poring money down that black hole Liberal Messiah.

I have a black hole too, give me some money too....oh wait I work for a living and therefore am not eligible.
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2009, 12:16 AM
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fourteenandoh is beyond Tressel and Hayesfourteenandoh is beyond Tressel and Hayesfourteenandoh is beyond Tressel and Hayesfourteenandoh is beyond Tressel and Hayesfourteenandoh is beyond Tressel and Hayesfourteenandoh is beyond Tressel and Hayesfourteenandoh is beyond Tressel and Hayesfourteenandoh is beyond Tressel and Hayesfourteenandoh is beyond Tressel and Hayes
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeMike80 View Post
Keep poring money down that black hole Liberal Messiah.

I have a black hole too, give me some money too....oh wait I work for a living and therefore am not eligible.
sounds like they are on the same page. the obama administration just announced that the restructuring plans from GM are no good and they will fund them for 60 more days and suggest they arrange for a structured bankruptcy.
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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2009, 08:14 AM
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he was forced out..
Government Forces Out Wagoner at GM - WSJ.com
Quote:
The Obama administration used the threat of withholding more bailout money to force out General Motors Corp. Chief Executive Rick Wagoner and administer harsh medicine to Chrysler LLC, marking one of the most dramatic government interventions in private industry since the economic crisis began last year.
The administration's auto team announced the departure of Mr. Wagoner on Sunday. In a summary of its findings, the task force added that it doesn't believe Chrysler is viable as a stand-alone company, and suggested that the best chance for success for both GM and Chrysler "may well require utilizing the bankruptcy code in a quick and surgical way."
The move also indicates that the Treasury Department intends to wade more deeply than most observers expected into the affairs of the country's largest and oldest car company.
After over a month of analysis, the administration's auto task force determined that neither company had put forward viable plans to restructure and survive. The verdict was gloomier for Chrysler. The government said it would provide Chrysler with capital for 30 days to cut a workable arrangement with Fiat SpA, the Italian auto maker that has a tentative alliance with Chrysler.

...
chrysler will be forced to merge with fiat
U.S. Sees Fiat Pact as Chrysler's Best Hope - WSJ.com
Quote:
DETROIT -- Chrysler LLC has failed to make its case to the federal government that it can be viable as a stand-alone company, and may have to resort to restructuring through bankruptcy court, the Obama administration's auto industry task force concluded in a memo released late Sunday.
The best chance for Chrysler and General Motors Corp. to recover "may well require utilizing the bankruptcy code in a quick and surgical way," the task force wrote in a memo summarizing its findings on the two auto makers. A "structured bankruptcy," the panel added, "would be a tool to make it easier for General Motors and Chrysler to clear away old liabilities so they can get on a path to success."
The task force, which has been studying the auto industry since mid-February, said Chrysler's best hope for revival lies in a proposed partnership with Italy's Fiat SpA.
The administration said it is willing to provide Chrysler 30 days' worth of working capital to finalize such a partnership; only then would it consider following up with the $6 billion in loans Chrysler has requested to effect its restructuring plan. And such a restructuring would have to include more significant debt reductions and concessions than Chrysler outlined in its initial appeal for government
...
feds to guaranteed gm, chrysler warranties
U.S. to Guarantee GM, Chrysler Warranties Amid Restructuring - WSJ.com
Quote:
DETROIT -- The Obama administration said it would guarantee warranties on General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC vehicles to help mitigate any drop in sales that could occur as they undergo the tough restructuring measures recommended by the government.
Under the program, GM, Chrysler and the government would set up a fund to cover the cost of warranty repairs if either company were to end up filing for bankruptcy protection, according to memo released Sunday night by the administration's auto task force.
The guarantee is designed to support the recovery of the companies by "mitigating consumer uncertainty that is depressing demand for new vehicles."
Consumers, the memo said, "should have confidence that if they buy new cars from either company, their warranties will be honored."
The fund that will be set up will cover 125% of the expected cost of future warranty repairs to ensure enough money is available for all repair claims. GM and Chrysler will contribute 15% of the amount required in cash, with government loans providing the rest.
chryslers viability statement
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...nt20090330.pdf
GMs viability statement
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...t-20090330.pdf
the obama "new path to viability"
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...et20090330.pdf

the day we were all hoping for is officially here. the day you can buy your federal govt car with your federal govt loan is here. all hail the idea that we can purchase from the federal govt (and remember that bankruptcy is still a "likely option")
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  #160 (permalink)  
Old 03-30-2009, 12:39 PM
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chrysler and fiat have reached an "alliance" with the "help" of the us tres.
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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2009, 08:03 AM
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Detroit's Fate Sealed in West Wing - WSJ.com
Quote:
...
White House economic adviser Mr. Summers led a conference call at 8:30 p.m. Sunday with lawmakers who had expressed strong interest in the auto bailout. At one point during the call, Mr. Summers told lawmakers the administration was pushing for the Fiat-Chrysler deal to include "building an energy-efficient vehicle in this country," Sen. Bob Corker said.
Sen. Corker, a Republican from Tennessee, said he told Mr. Rattner on Monday that he was alarmed that the administration would dictate what kind of vehicles would be constructed. "Deciding what vehicles and plants will survive is setting industrial policy," the senator said.
...
at this point we know that the us govt will mandate which brands will survive, what the business model will be, who will run the company, who will be on the board of directors. min this is a direct subsidy, up to possible full blown govt controlled market of business. where it falls i do not know at this point.
U.S. Threatens Bankruptcy for GM, Chrysler - WSJ.com
Quote:
The Obama administration, wading deeply into the U.S. auto industry, is weighing a fix for General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC that would divide their "good" and "bad" assets and send the auto makers into bankruptcy to purge their biggest problems.
The potential move would transform two companies that have helped define U.S. industrial power over the past century. Following the ouster of GM Chief Executive Rick Wagoner, it would represent one of the biggest-ever government incursions into private enterprise.
...
As part of their proposed pact, Fiat and Chrysler agreed over the weekend to scale down the Italian auto maker's initial stake in Chrysler to 20% as a condition of the Treasury Department's bailout. Fiat earlier this year struck an agreement to take a 35% stake in Chrysler initially, and up to an additional 20% at a later date.
...
With GM, the Obama administration is interested not just in preserving jobs, but in pushing other policy prescriptions, in particular creating a "company of the future" with clean and energy-efficient vehicles, a frequent campaign theme during Mr. Obama's quest for the presidency.
...
GM looks increasingly like it will be forced into filing for bankruptcy protection, sometime in mid-to-late May, and that the surviving "new GM" will retain select brands and some international operations, said several people familiar with the situation.
...
A key ingredient in acting on this plan is getting the UAW to agree to an entirely new contract, including major reductions in health-care benefits, said several people involved in the matter. "That's the No.1 wild card here," one of these people said Monday.
Under the plan, the "good" GM wouldn't be expected to hold the tens of billions of dollars in retiree and health-care obligations that hurt the auto maker in recent decades. Instead, those obligations would be transferred to an "old GM," made up of less-desirable brands such as Hummer and Saturn, and underperforming plants and other assets.
...

...
apparently barack obama and company have decided (wait obama has yet to come out and put his full name on this with whether or not he has ousted the board and ceo) that gm is a "systemic risk" and thus must be taken over by the federal govt. this once again will allow a failure of a company to shed weight and continue operations only of its profitable divisions in much the same way aig did. with the systemic risks take overs what is next? walmart? mcdonalds? see the major issue here? then post govt take over you spin the puppies apart good and bad and allow good to flounder under the ownership of the uaw and creditors while the us taxpayers ride our the losses on the failure of bad gm as it sits in b-court to be chop shopped and sold off maybe for only a giant loss. what do we have the chapter 11 system for? barack obama needs to keep in mind that his high dollar contributors (do we need to show the hundreds of millions unions tossed his way or the automakers) are not the only ones suffering.

who else is hurting? small business owners and their employees-these mom and pop shops and their workers paid their taxes like everyone else as these continue to close they foot the bailout and costs as their pay/hours are reduced and business shrinks and do not see a bailout only b/c they simply work for a smaller company. americans working for "foreign" companies in the auto industry, you know like the folks in marysville working for honda, or one of hondas hundreds of suppliers in ohio, hyundai in bama or nissan on symrna, tn, their companies have been hit just as hard yet due to a more competitive model better cost structure theyve gained market share yet borne the blunt of the direct subsidy/govt takeover/govt backstop and funding of gm, chrysler (and a tad of ford). why should these workers who are paid a lower wage see tax dollars funneled into their competitors? the share holder of the auto industry, those who have invested in profitable successful auto companies invested in the free enterprise system based on the read of the economic environment, those who have bought the "foreign" auto makers did so on a reasonable ivestments and rational basis based on a quality product, competitive basis to find a chance for profit and growth, is it fair the govt comes in now (and repeatedley) shifts the playing field, diminishing your values your investment and propping up less successful companies? the taxpayer- it is one thing to step in and provide a backdrop and maybe provide a loan to bridge restructuring or provide chpater 11 assistance in a way that aovids complete liquidation to preserve assests for the sale and reset of the company, to drop billions into a company for the sole purpose is that it is as barack obama says is the "emblem of the american spirit" the right thing to do on billions of the taxpayer dollars? no. gm/chrysler eomployees who will end up with even fewer employees working for sensible wages with reduction in benies and potentially without legacy costs-subsidized by the taxpayers- or reduced through transactions.

bottom line-is chapter 11 bankruptcy in court the better decision of the american workers, taxpayers and those vested with interests above or is the better choice the politically swirling winds of washington and white house?
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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2009, 08:29 AM
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Barack Obama's Industrial Policy Is Now Too Big to Fail - WSJ.com
Quote:
...
GM's CEO Rick Wagoner got the Presidential boot over the weekend, and GM was given two months to reorganize, or get forced into a "quick and surgical" bankruptcy. For once, we agree with Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm, who called Mr. Wagoner "a sacrificial lamb." The Administration needed someone to take the fall to sate the anticorporate furies it has helped to unleash. Mr. Wagoner wasn't solely responsible for GM's bad business decisions, but only recently did he promote the kind of radical restructuring the company has long needed. We only wish someone in Washington would also be shown the door, starting with those at the Federal Reserve whose oil-price bubbles also helped to break the car makers.
Sacking a CEO for appearance sake was the easy part. Good luck trying to get the unions to make concessions on wages and legacy costs, and bondholders to agree to reduce the debt burden. A senior Treasury official told us the Administration isn't holding its breath and considers "surgical bankruptcy" the likeliest outcome. In that event, "a shiny new GM" would emerge, said the official, who didn't want to be identified. Asked why GM wasn't forced into Chapter 11 immediately, the official said the Administration wanted to avoid "years of uncontrolled chaos" and needed time to set the stage for "the more surgical process."
...
To wit, that GM is now politically too big to fail. Listen to Mr. Obama: "We cannot, we must not, and we will not let our auto industry simply vanish." No mention that Ford took no bailout. Or that a third of American auto workers, some 100,000, are employed by successful "transplant," or foreign, car makers in dozens of U.S. plants.
...
Yet the Treasury's own "viability summary," released yesterday, points out that "GM's product portfolio is more vulnerable to CAFE [fuel-economy] standard increases than the portfolios of many of its competitors." Only nine of GM's "top 20 profit contributors in 2008" were cars; the rest were SUVs and trucks, which are politically incorrect on Capitol Hill and with the green lobbies. Chrysler has a similar problem. Even GM's much-vaunted electric Volt car is "too expensive to be commercially successful," according to Treasury.

In other words, Mr. Obama's industrial policy vision runs directly counter to a strategy that would get the companies back to profitability as soon as possible. To help them sell those unwanted cars, Mr. Obama yesterday was already pledging that taxpayers will cover new-car warranties. And he urged Congress to pass a new "incentive program" (read: subsidy) for "cleaner car" purchases.
...
with the govt forced chrysler-fiat deal. is this a good time to mention citi-wachovia-wells fargo debacle of fdic stuck deal between citi and wachovia for 2.2b when four days later wells fargo wanted to pay 15.1b for the same assests. govt forced vs free markets.... hmmm....
Judge blocks Wells Fargo-Wachovia deal - CNN.com


what has happened is that the govt has created an entity to big to fail in barack obamas own words. one that has a ceo set up and sacrificed to be picketed and sent death threats a la the aig crew. now you have the uaw with all the leverage against the company. you have a forced deal in chrsyler-fiat which will not result in a fair or even outcome. you will have "a shiny new government motors" emerge with green cars-not the volt since the treasury doesnt like that one. you have the feds saying cafe has made the company vunerable (note that cafe standards have just been increased again). you only have 9 viable (profitable) cars in the entire gm lineup. now you have a govt backed dircet subisidy program funded by the taxpayer to incent people to buy the us govt newest overtaken companies (gm/chrysler) you can beat that those incetives will carve out the "foreign" makers and tens of thousands of us domestic jobs will be put in question of those companies such as honda, nissan, hyundai etc who make their cars in the us.
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2009, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman View Post
he was forced out..
Government Forces Out Wagoner at GM - WSJ.com

chrysler will be forced to merge with fiat
U.S. Sees Fiat Pact as Chrysler's Best Hope - WSJ.com

feds to guaranteed gm, chrysler warranties
U.S. to Guarantee GM, Chrysler Warranties Amid Restructuring - WSJ.com


chryslers viability statement
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...nt20090330.pdf
GMs viability statement
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...t-20090330.pdf
the obama "new path to viability"
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...et20090330.pdf

the day we were all hoping for is officially here. the day you can buy your federal govt car with your federal govt loan is here. all hail the idea that we can purchase from the federal govt (and remember that bankruptcy is still a "likely option")
what, you don't like the New World Order?
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  #164 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2009, 05:50 PM
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If government vehicles = El Camino-minivans with knobby tires, then sign me up!

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Old 03-31-2009, 05:55 PM
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good news, if you lose your job ford and govt motors will pay for your car
The Associated Press: Ford, GM to cover car payments if buyer loses job
Quote:
DETROIT (AP) — Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp. are offering payment protection plans to help reassure consumers who may be putting off buying a new car because of worries about losing their job. The offers come as auto sales have been battered by the recession and tight credit, reaching their lowest levels in 27 years.
Ford said Tuesday it will cover payments of up to $700 each month for up to a year on any new Ford, Lincoln or Mercury vehicle if consumers lose their jobs. The program runs until June 1.
Hours later, GM said it will make a similar offer. GM's new CEO, Fritz Henderson, said the company will make up to nine car payments of $500 each for customers who have lost their jobs through no fault of their own.
Customers must qualify for state unemployment to be eligible for the program. The program starts April 1 and runs until April 30.
...
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