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Political Conversation and Debate This forum is not a temporary one. It will exist up to, and after the presidential elections. Some people want to talk or even argue politics, other's don't. Let's see if we can apply some reason and understanding to the debate.

 
View Poll Results: Should the US government provide financial assistance to the Detroit automakers
Yes. Like it or not, a lot of jobs are on the line. We don't have a choice. 3 6.98%
Yes, if they have a good business plan. Gov't must get equity, have oversight. 7 16.28%
No, help the affected workers with new job training, incentivise job creation. 4 9.30%
No, they have had too many chances. Let the markets work. Let them go bankrupt. 29 67.44%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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  #301 (permalink)  
Old 06-19-2009, 07:11 PM
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Eight Attorneys General Object to GM Bankruptcy Plan - WSJ.com
Quote:
Eight state attorneys general are opposing a provision in General Motors Corp.'s bankruptcy plan that would free the auto maker from liability for vehicle defects.
...
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  #302 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2009, 06:59 AM
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The Columbus Dispatch - News
Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Energy Department is lending money to the Ford Motor Co. and two other automakers from a $25 billion fund to develop fuel-efficient vehicles, congressional officials say.
Energy Secretary Steven Chu was scheduled to announce the loan funding for Ford, Nissan Motor Co. and Tesla Motors Inc. on Tuesday in Dearborn, Mich., the officials said. They requested anonymity because an official announcement was pending.
Dozens of auto companies, suppliers and battery makers have sought a total of $38 billion from the loan program. Ford has asked to receive $5 billion in loans by 2011, but it was unclear how much money the automaker would receive. Nissan has applied for an undisclosed amount of assistance, while Tesla has sought $450 million.
....
The loans were designed to help the auto manufacturers meet new fuel-efficiency standards of at least 35 miles per gallon by 2020, a 40 percent increase over current standards.
General Motors Corp. and Chrysler Group LLC have received billions of dollars in federal loans to restructure their companies through government-led bankruptcies, but Ford avoided seeking emergency aid by mortgaging all of its assets in 2006 to borrow about $25 billion.
General Motors has requested $10.3 billion in loans from the program, while Chrysler has asked for $6 billion in loans. Energy officials have said the loans could only go to "financially viable" companies, preventing GM and Chrysler to qualify for the first round of the loans.
Ford has sought a total of $11 billion from the loan program and has previously said it would invest $14 billion in advanced technologies over the next seven years. The loan application, which was submitted by the company late last year, would help Ford finance the investment.
...
some call it energy development fuel efficiency assistance, i call it another multi billion dollar govt aid protectionist bailout...
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  #303 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2009, 06:09 PM
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Obama Creates Council to Help Auto Industry - WSJ.com
Quote:
PERRYSBURG, Ohio-- President Barack Obama is creating a White House council to handle issues that affect American communities and workers tied to the automotive industry.
Vice President Joe Biden, announcing the creation of the White House Council on Automotive Communities and Workers on Tuesday in Ohio, said it would aim to help workers tied to the auto industry make a transition to new manufacturing opportunities, including jobs in alternative energy.
The recession has been particularly hard on the auto industry, which has lost more than 400,000 jobs in the last decade. Northwestern Ohio has been hit hard by the job losses, and now is banking on more green factory jobs.
The council will be chaired by the president's economic adviser, Larry Summers, and his labor secretary, Hilda Solis.
The executive director will be Mr. Obama's director of recovery for auto communities and workers, Ed Montgomery. The council, created for a period of two years, aims to coordinate the federal response to issues that affect auto workers and advise the president on policy proposals regarding the auto industry.
...
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  #304 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2009, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
The heading to this thread is inaccurate. The automakers could've all sought bankruptcy protection, restructured, and continued as going conerns. They didn't need "bailouts" to remain open.

What would not survive the bankruptcy process are the collective bargaining agreements. That is what we're bailing out - UAW contracts the automakers can no longer afford to pay.
I spoke too soon. It appears there are other possible headings to this thread:

Screwing secured creditors and handing the companies to the unions.

Quote:
The White House intefered in Chrysler's bankruptcy. Legally binding contracts were ignored. The secured creditors were given the message, "Sorry but this is how it is and we really don't care what the law is. We are the law and we can do whatever we want."

Most of the secured creditors caved in to the pressure from the White House, but a few, such as the Indiana State Pension Fund and the Indiana State Teacher's Retirement Fund decided to assert their legal rights and took it all the way to the Supreme Court. Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg ruled that the Supreme Court would not hear the case.
Supreme Court Screws Chrysler Bondholders - ClosureIsaMyth - Open Salon
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  #305 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2009, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake
I spoke too soon. It appears there are other possible headings to this thread:

Screwing secured creditors and handing the companies to the unions.



Supreme Court Screws Chrysler Bondholders - ClosureIsaMyth - Open Salon
yup i mentioned that before the Court did not grant cert. but good news is that the us sc will get a head start on recess this for the summer...
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  #306 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2009, 04:12 PM
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Rattner Steps Down, Bloom to Run Auto Task Force, Treasury Says - Bloomberg.com

car czar out. remember his conflicts of interest with cerberus, and the ongoing investigation (and some convictions) involving the sec/ny ag with regard to quadrangle.
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  #307 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2009, 05:16 PM
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Delphi and PBGC settle pension dispute - WSJ.com
Quote:
Welcome to the General Motors bailout, part three—or is it four, or five? It’s hard to keep up, but this week the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation took over the pension liabilities of Delphi, the auto-parts spinoff of GM that has been working its way through Chapter 11 since 2005. As with the previous taxpayer rescues, this one includes a special favor for the United Auto Workers.
Under the agreement, the PBGC will assume some $6.2 billion in pension liabilities from Delphi, including both hourly and salaried employees. That’s the second biggest pension bailout in PBGC history, and it takes billions of liabilities off the books for GM. As Delphi’s former parent, GM had agreed to take responsibility for billions of dollars of Delphi’s pension obligations to its hourly employees.
It will be months before Delphi employees know what percentage of their expected pension they’ll receive, but not all pensioners are created equal in this arrangement. UAW employees will have their pensions made whole by GM, which insists it is merely fulfilling its end of a deal made with the UAW in 1999 (when it spun off Delphi) to cover any future pension shortfall. Few such obligations usually survive bankruptcy, but, nah, we’re sure politics had nothing to do with it. Less fortunate are smaller unions and Delphi’s salaried employees, whose pensions may see drastic reductions and who already lost their health care and life insurance plans on April 1. They would seem to lack the UAW’s clout inside GM and the Obama Administration.
...
Quote:
...
By our math, this puts the taxpayer contribution to GM’s survival at nearly $70 billion: Some $50 billion for the serial rescues of GM itself, another $12.5 billion for its GMAC credit arm, and now $6.2 billion from the PBGC.
...
Quote:
Meanwhile, the Administration is putting the PBGC, an ostensibly independent agency, at further financial risk. After Delphi filed for bankruptcy, the agency put liens on its overseas assets, providing an offset in case it had to take on the company’s pension liabilities. Now, lo and behold, the liens have been removed, allowing Delphi to sell its assets in bankruptcy court. GM will pay PBGC $70 million for the favor of releasing its liens, which Mr. Speicher says totalled about $200 million. Nifty deal for GM, though not for taxpayers.
When the PBGC was created in 1974, Democrats running Congress assured everyone there was no taxpayer risk because the agency would be funded by fees from pension plans, as well as by the assets of plans the company takes over. But like Fannie Mae, we are learning that sooner or later these government guarantees always come due. Now the PBGC has a $33.5 billion deficit even before Delphi, and more bankruptcies are headed its way. Mark it down as one more way the taxpayers are being put on the hook for GM, the UAW and Michigan’s 17 electoral votes in 2012.
dayton has a thread on the disaster that is the PBGC

the "good news" is gm is the tax payer, right? i guess...
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  #308 (permalink)  
Old 07-25-2009, 09:57 PM
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So not only have we been forced to invest in GM and the UAW, we now are financing vouchers for "clunkers" in order to generate business for GM.

About the only thing our wonderful new government hasn't done is force me to drive one of the POS GM cars produced by the UAW, and paid for by people like me whether I like or not.

I'll [censored]ing walk to work before I buy a car from Government Motors.
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  #309 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2009, 11:04 PM
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‘Cash-For-Clunkers’ Plan Attracts 16,000 Auto Dealers (Update2) - Bloomberg.com
Quote:
16,000 U.S. auto dealers have applied to participate in the “cash-for-clunkers” vehicle trade-in program, or about 80 percent of the nation’s new- vehicle retailers, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said.
...
The Transportation Department has processed 15,893 dealer applications, LaHood said.
someone please explain to me why dealers have to apply and be accepted for the cars (cash for clunkers program)?


ill also note that last year the market "pent up" about 3m cars, and likely has "pent up" even more than that this year. the reality is the pent up demand will be unleashed once we have some form of recovery (i still personally think the initial recovery will be parallel the clinton jobless recovery)





the auto industry is extremely cyclical.

in the last 20 years about 60m new us cars on the road as compared to 1989 data. (189m in 1989 to current number of about 250m). 2009 is likely the first decline since ww2 was actively being fought (1945).
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  #310 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2009, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
someone please explain to me why dealers have to apply and be accepted for the cars (cash for clunkers program)?
If I had to guess it would be that they need to accept certain terms and conditions.
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  #311 (permalink)  
Old 07-30-2009, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman
‘Cash-For-Clunkers’ Plan Attracts 16,000 Auto Dealers (Update2) - Bloomberg.com

someone please explain to me why dealers have to apply and be accepted for the cars (cash for clunkers program)?


ill also note that last year the market "pent up" about 3m cars, and likely has "pent up" even more than that this year. the reality is the pent up demand will be unleashed once we have some form of recovery (i still personally think the initial recovery will be parallel the clinton jobless recovery)





the auto industry is extremely cyclical.

in the last 20 years about 60m new us cars on the road as compared to 1989 data. (189m in 1989 to current number of about 250m). 2009 is likely the first decline since ww2 was actively being fought (1945).
O’Neill: Auto Industry Can Make a Comeback - WSJ.com

discussion of my points. and five things to lot at going forward.
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  #312 (permalink)  
Old 07-30-2009, 09:48 PM
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GM Profits from “Tax-Loss Carry Forward” - WSJ.com
Quote:
As everyone else’s taxes rise, one favored outfit may not have to pay federal taxes for years: General Motors. In another sweet deal from its benefactors on Pennsylvania Avenue, the government-owned car company is set to profit from billions of dollars in tax breaks not available to other businesses in the same predicament.
The new GM will be allowed to claim a tax benefit from some $16 billion of net operating losses carried over from the old company, allowing it to avoid paying taxes on future profits, perhaps for years. The issue is a common accounting practice called “tax-loss carry forward,” under which businesses can write off losses against future profits for up to 20 years.
The losses are considered important assets on any company’s balance sheet, but they typically don’t survive bankruptcy. Under a longstanding section of the tax code passed to prevent companies from buying other companies for the purpose of assuming their tax losses, a business that undergoes a change in ownership usually has to forfeit the old company’s net operating losses.
That would normally be the case for GM, except that the government is its new majority shareholder. While transfers of net operating losses during bankruptcy can sometimes be handled through reorganization plans, that was not what the Obama Administration did. When GM filed for bankruptcy, it chose a so-called “363 sale,” which allows the company to take a fast track to the sale without the due process protections usually provided to creditors.

...
Some insist this doesn’t matter because the government owns 60.8% of GM, and so any tax collection would merely move funds from one federal pocket to another. But the other 39.2% belongs to others who will also benefit from the special exception. And who might that be? Well, after the feds, the biggest stakeholder in the new GM is the United Auto Workers retiree health-care trust, which holds 17.5%. GM says the tax-loss exception will help its “cash position to the benefit of all parties,” and no doubt the tax shelter makes the company more valuable to investors. But it also ensures the company has more cash on hand to pay union retirees, who will vote in 2012.
Congress limited tax-loss carry forwards because it concluded they were being abused to unfairly erase tax liability. If the Administration thinks that’s bad tax policy, it ought to propose changing the rule for all companies, not merely for those it owns. Instead, it has handed a $16 billion tax gift to GM that isn’t available to Ford or other auto makers that didn’t take bailout cash. It’s one more example of the way the political class has stacked the deck in favor of Government Motors.
more favoritism and benefits to stack the deck in favor of gm. the real losers here are american taxpayers, gm is off the hook for 16b due to the carry over loss, this loss is 16b
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  #313 (permalink)  
Old 07-30-2009, 09:58 PM
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C.F.C was supposed to go until November, but there was such demand they had to halt it today.
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  #314 (permalink)  
Old 07-30-2009, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourteenandoh
C.F.C was supposed to go until November, but there was such demand they had to halt it today.
U.S. ‘Clunkers’ Auto Program Suspended, Senator Says (Update1) - Bloomberg.com
here is your linkage for the halt.

also they did a switcheroo on a bunch of cars...
Cash-for-clunkers auto eligibility list changed - USATODAY.com
Quote:
As it prepared for its "cash-for-clunkers" program, the government rejiggered gas mileage figures on about 100 older vehicles last week in a way that changed whether they would be eligible for up to $4,500 in sales inducements.
The Environmental Protection Agency says the changes resulted from a double-check of its fuel-efficiency ratings on more than 30,000 1984 and newer vehicles in advance of the official start of the clunkers program Monday.
....
To qualify for the $1 billion program aimed at spurring auto sales and driving gas guzzlers off the road, the clunker must have an EPA city-highway "combined" rating of 18 miles per gallon or lower.
Buyers then get a $3,500 incentive if the new car gets 4 to 9 mpg more or $4,500 for 10 mpg or more. The new car also must itself have a minimum 22 mpg combined rating. The program ends Nov. 1, or when the $1 billion runs out.
EPA gave no reason its ratings were inaccurate or why some went up. For the 2008 model year, EPA started revising mileage figures, typically downward, to better reflect real-world driving. For example, a Toyota Prius that had been rated 60 mpg in city driving fell 20% to 48 mpg.
...
basically our open and transparent govt changed govt estimated mileage on in excess of 100 cars, many of the cars had been on the road for more than 10 years...

Mich. lawmakers push to extend 'CARS'
word is we may, "throw a little more money at this program"
Quote:
"Calling the White House, talking to the leadership in both the House and Senate to get a little bit more money put into this program," he said.
...
"It appears to be driving automobile [sales] volume, so it may be a more effective stimulus than other parts of the stimulus package," Hoekstra said.
U.S. Sen. Debbie Stabenow called the program an effective short-term stimulus in a statement released Thursday night.
"With over 200,000 cars sold, hundreds of employees on the job serving customers, millions of dollars in advertisement spending and sales tax income flowing into struggling states, CARS has injected money into communities across America," she said.
....
direct injection into government motors and the labor unions...
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  #315 (permalink)  
Old 07-30-2009, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman View Post
GM Profits from ?Tax-Loss Carry Forward? - WSJ.com
... the real losers here are american taxpayers...
I disagree; the real losers are Ford, Honda, Toyota and GM's other competitors who are constrained from using the same rules.
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