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Political Conversation and Debate This forum is not a temporary one. It will exist up to, and after the presidential elections. Some people want to talk or even argue politics, other's don't. Let's see if we can apply some reason and understanding to the debate.

 
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:12 PM
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Stimulus Package: Tax Cuts Versus Spending

The stimulus plan is the biggest issue going right now in government, and the biggest question about the package is whether or not tax cuts should be included in the package.

Most economists interviewed lately are saying that spending - specifically infrastructure spending - should be a major focus of the plan, but it seems that a large chunk of the plan might be tax cuts of some kind.

I, probably unsurprisingly, would like to see this plan include a heavy dose of spending for infrastructure and jobs, but it seemed like this would be a good debate for our Forum here.

Any thoughts?

I will try to post some links later today to support this thread.
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Old 01-27-2009, 01:30 PM
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I posted this in the Obama thread a little while ago, seems to fit here:

NYT- Op-Ed Herbert - The Same Old Song (free sub required)

Quote:
What's up with the Republicans? Have they no sense that their policies have sent the country hurtling down the road to ruin? Are they so divorced from reality that in their delusionary state they honestly believe we need more of their tax cuts for the rich and their other forms of plutocratic irresponsibility, the very things that got us to this deplorable state?

The G.O.P.'s latest campaign is aimed at undermining President Obama's effort to cope with the national economic emergency by attacking the spending in his stimulus package and repeating ad nauseam the Republican mantra for ever more tax cuts.

"Right now, given the concerns that we have over the size of this package and all the spending in this package, we don't think it?s going to work," said Representative John Boehner, an Ohio Republican who is House minority leader. Speaking on NBC's "Meet the Press," Mr. Boehner said of the plan: "Put me down in the 'no' column."

If anything, the stimulus package is not large enough. Less than 24 hours after Mr. Boehner?s televised exercise in obstructionism, the heavy-equipment company Caterpillar announced that it was cutting 20,000 jobs, Sprint Nextel said it was eliminating 8,000, and Home Depot 7,000.

Maybe the Republicans don't think there is an emergency. After all, it was Phil Gramm, John McCain?s economic guru, who told us last summer that the pain was all in our heads, that this was a "mental recession."

The truth, of course, is that the country is hemorrhaging jobs and Americans are heading to the poorhouse by the millions. The stock markets and the value of the family home have collapsed, and there is virtual across-the-board agreement that the country is caught up in the worst economic disaster since at least World War II.

The Republican answer to this turmoil?
Tax cuts.
They need to go into rehab.

cont.
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Old 01-27-2009, 03:00 PM
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Krugman did a great job yesterday of taking down point-by-point the crap that the Republicans are throwing on the wall hoping something sticks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/op...ef=todayspaper

My particular favorite:

Quote:
That?s why we?re talking about large-scale fiscal stimulus: it?s what?s left in the policy arsenal now that the Fed has shot its bolt. Anyone who cites old arguments against fiscal stimulus without mentioning that either doesn?t know much about the subject ? and therefore has no business weighing in on the debate ? or is being deliberately obtuse.
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Old 01-27-2009, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORD_Buckeye
Krugman did a great job yesterday of taking down point-by-point the crap that the Republicans are throwing on the wall hoping something sticks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/op...ef=todayspaper

My particular favorite:
have you read conscience of a liberal? i have it in a stack of things i want to and might read since a friend gave it to me. krugman wrote that.

hes certainly interesting guy. sweep his enron time off the table and you have his welfare state philosphy with his views on sweatshops, free trade etc.

who knows maybe ill read the book. its in a stack of maybes.
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Old 01-27-2009, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimotis4heisman View Post
have you read conscience of a liberal? i have it in a stack of things i want to and might read since a friend gave it to me. krugman wrote that.

hes certainly interesting guy. sweep his enron time off the table and you have his welfare state philosphy with his views on sweatshops, free trade etc.

who knows maybe ill read the book. its in a stack of maybes.
Hopefully it is better than that article, as the major theme is to simply say dismiss anyone who disagrees or hold a different view than you.
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Old 01-27-2009, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyegrad View Post
Hopefully it is better than that article, as the major theme is to simply say dismiss anyone who disagrees or hold a different view than you.
Buckeyegrad, don't you think that's a little bit of an oversimplification?

Krugman's article doesn't simply dismiss those who hold a different opinion. Rather, he point-by-point addresses each of the current reasons for opposing the stimulus that the Repubs are floating and details his reasoning, with references and facts to back him up, why those positions are at best mistaken if not outright disengenuous.
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:00 PM
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As for the other side of the debate as to why this so-called "stimulus" package won't work, here is an excellent article from the WSJ:

The Stimulus Time Machine - WSJ.com
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyegrad View Post
As for the other side of the debate as to why this so-called "stimulus" package won't work, here is an excellent article from the WSJ:

The Stimulus Time Machine - WSJ.com
Just one little problem there. The magic bullet of a CBO report, which is the foundation for the article's conclusions, doesn't exist.

Controversial CBO Report On Stimulus Turns Out Not To Exist
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORD_Buckeye View Post
Buckeyegrad, don't you think that's a little bit of an oversimplification?

Krugman's article doesn't simply dismiss those who hold a different opinion. Rather, he point-by-point addresses each of the current reasons for opposing the stimulus that the Repubs are floating and details his reasoning, with references and facts to back him up, why those positions are at best mistaken if not outright disengenuous.

Well, since he really doesn't address anything in the article I posted as to why the plan won't work, it appears as though he is cherry-picking the weakest arguments out there. I would also contend there is much hyperbole in his characterization of the conservative views on this package. I really don't see this "point-by-point" address you and he is claiming to be there.
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyegrad View Post
As for the other side of the debate as to why this so-called "stimulus" package won't work, here is an excellent article from the WSJ:

The Stimulus Time Machine - WSJ.com
Their leading premise is the timing of outlays - in stating which premise they do a disservice to the reader by not making clear that Fiscal 2009 ends within a month or so.
So, while they are acurate in typifying the outlays as having a peak in Fiscal 2011, they are, like Boehner, disingenuous when not clarifying exactly when Fiscal 2011 begins.

Tasking the bill's authors for what they wish to spend money on is certainly going to be a plaint of the GOP. But, there is no need to obfuscate those policy issues with arguments grounded in artificial temporal displacement.
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORD_Buckeye
Just one little problem there. The magic bullet of a CBO report, which is the foundation for the article's conclusions, doesn't exist.

Controversial CBO Report On Stimulus Turns Out Not To Exist
that was discussed in the obama thread. the "report" does not exist. the approp part of the numbers exist and that was what was referenced.

the obama thread also contains the breakdown of $
Quote:
? $32 billion to transform the nation's energy transmission, distribution, and production systems by allowing for a smarter and better grid and focusing investment in renewable technology.
? $16 billion to repair public housing and make key energy efficiency retrofits.
? $6 billion to weatherize modest-income homes
? $10 billion for science facilities, research, and instrumentation.
? $6 billion to expand broadband internet access so businesses in rural and other underserved areas can link up to the global economy.
? $30 billion for highway construction;
? $31 billion to modernize federal and other public infrastructure with investments that lead to long term energy cost savings;
? $19 billion for clean water, flood control, and environmental restoration investments;
? $10 billion for transit and rail to reduce traffic congestion and gas consumption
? $41 billion to local school districts through Title I ($13 billion), IDEA ($13 billion), a new School Modernization and Repair Program ($14 billion), and the Education Technology program ($1 billion).
? $79 billion in state fiscal relief to prevent cutbacks to key services, including $39 billion to local school districts and public colleges and universities distributed through existing state and federal formulas, $15 billion to states as bonus grants as a reward for meeting key performance measures, and $25 billion to states for other high priority needs such as public safety and other critical services, which may include education.
? $15.6 billion to increase the Pell grant by $500.
? $6 billion for higher education modernization.
$20 billion for health information technology to prevent medical mistakes, provide better care to patients and introduce cost-saving efficiencies.
? $4.1 billion to provide for preventative care and to evaluate the most effective healthcare treatments.
$43 billion for increased unemployment benefits and job training.
? $39 billion to support those who lose their jobs by helping them to pay the cost of keeping their employer provided healthcare under COBRA and providing short-term options to be covered by Medicaid.
? $20 billion to increase the food stamp benefit by over 13% in order to help defray rising food costs.
? $87 billion for a temporary increase in the Medicaid matching rate.
? $4 billion for state and local law enforcement funding.
? Reliable, Efficient Electricity Grid: $11 billion for research and development, pilot projects, and federal matching funds for the Smart Grid Investment Program to modernize the electricity grid making it more efficient, secure, and reliable and build new power lines to transmit clean, renewable energy from sources throughout the nation.
? Renewable Energy Loan Guarantees: $8 billion for loans for renewable energy power generation and transmission projects.
? GSA Federal Buildings: $6.7 billion for renovations and repairs to federal buildings including at least $6 billion focused on increasing energy efficiency and conservation. Projects are selected based on GSA's ready-to-go priority list.
? Local Government Energy Efficiency Block Grants: $6.9 billion to help state and local governments make investments that make them more energy efficient and reduce carbon emissions.
? Energy Efficiency Housing Retrofits: $2.5 billion for a new program to upgrade HUD sponsored low-income housing to increase energy efficiency, including new insulation, windows, and furnaces. Funds will be competitively awarded.
? Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Research: $2 billion for energy efficiency and renewable energy research, development, demonstration, and deployment activities to foster energy independence, reduce carbon emissions, and cut utility bills. Funds are awarded on a competitive basis to universities, companies, and national laboratories.
? Advanced Battery Loans and Grants: $2 billion for the Advanced Battery Loan Guarantee and Grants Program, to support U.S. manufacturers of advanced vehicle batteries and battery systems. America should lead the world in transforming the way automobiles are powered.
? Energy Efficiency Grants and Loans for Institutions: $1.5 billion for energy sustainability and efficiency grants and loans to help school districts, institutes of higher education, local governments, and municipal utilities implement projects that will make them more energy efficient.
? Home Weatherization: $6.2 billion to help low-income families reduce their energy costs by weatherizing their homes and make our country more energy efficient.
? Smart Appliances: $300 million to provide consumers with rebates for buying energy efficient Energy Star products to replace old appliances, which will lower energy bills.
? GSA Federal Fleet: $600 million to replace older vehicles owned by the federal government with alternative fuel automobiles that will save on fuel costs and reduce carbon emissions.
? Electric Transportation: $200 million for a new grant program to encourage electric vehicle technologies.
? Cleaning Fossil Energy: $2.4 billion for carbon capture and sequestration technology demonstration projects. This funding will provide valuable information necessary to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide emitted into the atmosphere from industrial facilities and fossil fuel power plants.
? Department of Defense Research: $350 million for research into using renewable energy to power weapons systems and military bases.
? Alternative Buses and Trucks: $400 million to help state and local governments purchase efficient alternative fuel vehicles to reduce fuel costs and carbon emissions.
? Industrial Energy Efficiency: $500 million for energy efficient manufacturing demonstration projects.
Diesel Emissions Reduction: $300 million for grants and loans to state and local governments for projects that reduce diesel emissions, benefiting public health and reducing global warming. This includes technologies to retrofit emission exhaust systems on school buses, replace engines and vehicles, and establish anti-idling programs. 70% of the funds go to competitive grants and 30% funds grants to states with approved programs. Last year EPA was able to fund only 27% of the applications received
? Wireless and Broadband Grants: $6 billion for broadband and wireless services in underserved areas to strengthen the economy and provide business and job opportunities in every section of America with benefits to e-commerce, education, and healthcare. For every dollar invested in broadband the economy sees a ten-fold return on that investment.
? National Science Foundation: $3 billion, including $2 billion for expanding employment opportunities in fundamental science and engineering to meet environmental challenges and to improve global economic competitiveness, $400 million to build major research facilities that perform cutting edge science, $300 million for major research equipment shared by institutions of higher education and other scientists, $200 million to repair and modernize science and engineering research facilities at the nation's institutions of higher education and other science labs, and $100 million is also included to improve instruction in science, math and engineering.
? National Institutes of Health Biomedical Research: $2 billion, including $1.5 billion for expanding good jobs in biomedical research to study diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, cancer, and heart disease - NIH is currently able to fund less than 20% of approved applications - and $500 million to implement the repair and improvement strategic plan developed by the NIH for its campuses.
? University Research Facilities: $1.5 billion for NIH to renovate university research facilities and help them compete for biomedical research grants. The National Science Foundation estimates a maintenance backlog of $3.9 billion in biological science research space. Funds are awarded competitively.
? Centers for Disease Control and Prevention: $462 million to enable CDC to complete its Buildings and Facilities Master Plan, as well as renovations and construction needs of the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health.
? Department of Energy: $1.9 billion for basic research into the physical sciences including high-energy physics, nuclear physics, and fusion energy sciences and improvements to DOE laboratories and scientific facilities. $400 million is for the Advanced Research Project Agency - Energy to support high-risk, high-payoff research into energy sources and energy efficiency.
? NASA: $600 million, including $400 million to put more scientists to work doing climate change research, including Earth science research recommended by the National Academies, satellite sensors that measure solar radiation critical to understanding climate change, and a thermal infrared sensor to the Landsat Continuing Mapper necessary for water management, particularly in the western states; $150 million for research, development, and demonstration to improve aviation safety and Next Generation air traffic control (NextGen); and $50 million to repair NASA centers damaged by hurricanes and floods last year.
? Biomedical Advanced Research and Development, Pandemic Flu, and Cyber Security: $900 million to prepare for a pandemic influenza, support advanced development of medical countermeasures for chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear threats, and for cyber security protections at HHS.
? National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Satellites and Sensors: $600 million for satellite development and acquisitions, including climate sensors and climate modeling.
? National Institute of Standards and Technology: $300 million for competitive construction grants for research science buildings at colleges, universities, and other research organizations and $100 million to coordinate research efforts of laboratories and national research facilities by setting interoperability standards for manufacturing.
? Agricultural Research Service: $209 million for agricultural research facilities across the country. ARS has a list of deferred maintenance work at facilities of roughly $315 million.
? U.S. Geological Survey: $200 million to repair and modernize U.S.G.S. science facilities and equipment, including improvements to laboratories, earthquake monitoring systems, and computing capacity.
? Small Business Credit: $430 million for new direct lending and loan guarantee authorities to make loans more attractive to lenders and free up capital. The number of loans guaranteed under the SBA's 7(a) business loan program was down 57% in the first quarter of this year compared to last.
? Rural Business-Cooperative Service: $100 million for rural business grants and loans to guarantee $2 billion in loans for rural businesses at a time of unprecedented demand due to the credit crunch. Private sector lenders are increasingly turning to this program to help businesses get access to capital.
? Industrial Technology Services: $100 million, including $70 million for the Technology Innovation Program to accelerate research in potentially revolutionary technologies with high job growth potential, and $30 million for the Manufacturing Extension Partnerships to help small and mid-size manufacturers compete globally by providing them with access to technology.
? Economic Development Assistance: $250 million to address long-term economic distress in urban industrial cores and rural areas distributed based on need and ability to create jobs and attract private investment. EDA leverages $10 in private investments for $1 in federal funds.
DTV Conversion Coupons: $650 million to continue the coupon program to enable American households to convert from analog television transmission to digital transmission.
Highway Infrastructure: $30 billion for highway and bridge construction projects. It is estimated that states have over 5,100 projects totaling over $64 billion that could be awarded within 180 days. These projects create jobs in the short term while saving commuters time and money in the long term. In 2006, the Department of Transportation estimated $8.5 billion was needed to maintain current systems and $61.4 billion was needed to improve highways and bridges.
Transit: Public transportation saves Americans time and money, saving as much as 4.2 billion gallons of gasoline and reducing carbon emissions by 37 million metric tons each year.
? New Construction: $1 billion for Capital Investment Grants for new commuter rail or other light rail systems to increase public use of mass transit and to speed projects already in construction. The Federal Transit Administration has $2.4 billion in pre-approved projects.
? Upgrades and Repair: $2 billion to modernize existing transit systems, including renovations to stations, security systems, computers, equipment, structures, signals, and communications. Funds will be distributed through the existing formula. The repair backlog is nearly $50 billion.
? Transit Capital Assistance: $6 billion to purchase buses and equipment needed to increase public transportation and improve intermodal and transit facilities. The Department of Transportation estimates a $3.2 billion maintenance backlog and $9.2 billion in needed improvements. The American Public Transportation Association identified 787 ready-to-go transit projects totaling $15.5 billion. Funds will be distributed through the existing formulas.
Amtrak and Intercity Passenger Rail Construction Grants: $1.1 billion to improve the speed and capacity of intercity passenger rail service. The Department of Transportation's Inspector General estimates the North East Corridor alone has a backlog of over $10 billion.
ill note part of the energy policy is 21m for new grass on the national mall.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2009, 04:11 PM
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Spending money we don't have is a big part of the problem, not the solution. Government spending can only occur in three ways:

- taxes extracted from an already sagging economy. That's like poking a hole in a bucket, holding a glass under it, filling up the glass, dumping it back in the bucket and thinking you're going to refill it.

- printing more fiat currency. Our money is only worth what we think it is worth, because there is nothing behind it of value. Diluting the currency is not a recipe for economic recovery.

- more debt, assuming anyone wants to invest in America right now. Borrowing money from ourselves is just kicking the can down the road. We the People will have to pay that debt, someday.

No nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity. Let's not repeat the mistakes that made the Great Depression last so long, Keynsian Economics and the misguided notion that government can rescue the economy. Governments cannot create wealth, they can only extract it and respend it.

Putting quarters into a washing machine, washing our own clothes, then taking the quarters out of the machine is a zero sum game. Doing it on a larger scale is still a zero sum game.
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORD_Buckeye View Post
Just one little problem there. The magic bullet of a CBO report, which is the foundation for the article's conclusions, doesn't exist.

Controversial CBO Report On Stimulus Turns Out Not To Exist
Actually, ORD a CBO estimate does exist for the Bill - there's always a CBO report on such legislation.
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Old 01-27-2009, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandgk
Actually, ORD a CBO estimate does exist for the Bill - there's always a CBO report on such legislation.
its not a full report. so techincally its not a "report" no report in the headline. its more like a box score and recap. its not the full rusty miller post game article. its only the quick 2 paragraph summary and box score.

so techinically ord is right (i mean correct not politically), you are wrong. for all practical purpsoses their is one.

granted its only for the approp part of the bill not the ways/means, commerce, energy parts.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2009, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandgk View Post
Actually, ORD a CBO estimate does exist for the Bill - there's always a CBO report on such legislation.
Different numbers, same themes: Michelle Malkin ? New CBO report echoes earlier analysis: “Stimulus” too sloooow to stimulate

Of particular note (additional note: this is not Malkin speaking, but the deputy director of the CBO):

Quote:
The bill?s enactment would likely occur nearly half way through the fiscal year. Previous experience suggest that agencies have difficulty rapidly expanding existing programs while maintaining current services; the funding in H.R. 1 for some programs is substantially greater than the usual annual funding for those activities. Spending can be delayed by necessary lags for planning, soliciting bids, entering contracts, and conducting regulatory or environmental reviews. Agencies face additional challenges in spending funds for new programs quickly because of the time necessary to develop procedures and criteria, issue regulations, and review plans and proposals before money can be distributed. Frequently in the past, in all types of federal programs, a noticeable lag has occurred between sharp increases in funding and resulting increases in outlays. Based on such experiences, CBO expects that federal agencies, states, and other recipients of funding would find it difficult to properly manage and oversee a rapid expansion of existing programs so as to spend added funds quickly as they expend their normal resources. The seasonal nature of some spending also affects the speed at which activities can be conducted; for example, major school repairs are generally scheduled during the summer to avoid disrupting classes.

Last edited by buckeyegrad; 01-27-2009 at 04:38 PM.
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