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Political Conversation and Debate This forum is not a temporary one. It will exist up to, and after the presidential elections. Some people want to talk or even argue politics, other's don't. Let's see if we can apply some reason and understanding to the debate.

 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 01:06 AM
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DaytonBuck's Freedom Island

This thread was inspired by DaytonBuck's idea of an area of space dedicated to freedom and free markets. So I'm going to start it off on the right note with this fitting article.

Adam Smith gets the last laugh

By P.J. O?Rourke



Quote:
The free market is dead. It was killed by the Bolshevik Revolution, fascist dirigisme, Keynesianism, the Great Depression, the second world war economic controls, the Labour party victory of 1945, Keynesianism again, the Arab oil embargo, Anthony Giddens?s ?third way? and the current financial crisis. The free market has died at least 10 times in the past century. And whenever the market expires people want to know what Adam Smith would say. It is a moment of, ?Hello, God, how?s my atheism going??

Adam Smith would be laughing too hard to say anything. Smith spotted the precise cause of our economic calamity not just before it happened but 232 years before ? probably a record for going short.
?A dwelling-house, as such, contributes nothing to the revenue of its inhabitant,? Smith said in The Wealth of Nations. ?If it is lett [sic] to a tenant for rent, as the house itself can produce nothing, the tenant must always pay the rent out of some other revenue.? Therefore Smith concluded that, although a house can make money for its owner if it is rented, ?the revenue of the whole body of the people can never be in the smallest degree increased by it?. [281]*

Smith was familiar with rampant speculation, or ?overtrading? as he politely called it.
The Mississippi Scheme and the South Sea Bubble had both collapsed in 1720, three years before his birth. In 1772, while Smith was writing The Wealth of Nations, a bank run occurred in Scotland. Only three of Edinburgh?s 30 private banks survived. The reaction to the ensuing credit freeze from the Scottish overtraders sounds familiar, ?The banks, they seem to have thought,? Smith said, ?were in honour bound to supply the deficiency, and to provide them with all the capital which they wanted to trade with.? [308]
Quote:
We could pump the banks full of our national treasure. But Smith said: “To attempt to increase the wealth of any country, either by introducing or by detaining in it an unnecessary quantity of gold and silver, is as absurd as it would be to attempt to increase the good cheer of private families, by obliging them to keep an unnecessary number of kitchen utensils.”
cont...
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 01:21 AM
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Dayton, I have drained the blood from a Keynesian Economist to welcome you to Freedom Island!
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorubet View Post


Dayton, I have drained the blood from a Keynesian Economist to welcome you to Freedom Island!
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 07:58 PM
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Will there be a need for construction workers? I am also pretty damn good at fence installation. Wood (privacy, picket, split rail), chain link (from 3' to 20'), and any other kind you can think of. Three years experience in fence, six in concrete/poured and retaining walls. Landscaping, including mowing (maitenence), sod application and removal, one year experience. Also can dig holes like a big nasty bastard. I can work any power tool you put in front of me, and I'm a hard worker, but I have fun while doing it.

You're gonna need guys on this Isle of Liberty that don't mind getting dirty.

Holla back.
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUCKYLE View Post
Will there be a need for construction workers? I am also pretty damn good at fence installation. Wood (privacy, picket, split rail), chain link (from 3' to 20'), and any other kind you can think of. Three years experience in fence, six in concrete/poured and retaining walls. Landscaping, including mowing (maitenence), sod application and removal, one year experience. Also can dig holes like a big nasty bastard. I can work any power tool you put in front of me, and I'm a hard worker, but I have fun while doing it.

You're gonna need guys on this Isle of Liberty that don't mind getting dirty.

Holla back.
You will have a cabinent level postion
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUCKYLE View Post
Will there be a need for construction workers? I am also pretty damn good at fence installation. Wood (privacy, picket, split rail), chain link (from 3' to 20'), and any other kind you can think of. Three years experience in fence, six in concrete/poured and retaining walls. Landscaping, including mowing (maitenence), sod application and removal, one year experience. Also can dig holes like a big nasty bastard. I can work any power tool you put in front of me, and I'm a hard worker, but I have fun while doing it.

You're gonna need guys on this Isle of Liberty that don't mind getting dirty.

Holla back.
You any relation to Tim the Tool Man Taylor.....if so can you bring Heidi....
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckeyebri View Post
You any relation to Tim the Tool Man Taylor.....if so can you bring Heidi....
Dude, it's Freedom Island. I'm not bringing sand to the beach...so to speak.
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:12 PM
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Buckyle will be the secretary of beard
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaytonBuck View Post
Buckyle will be the secretary of beard
Now that's a position with a lot of responsibility.
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorubet View Post

I was about to let out a knee jerk yelp of "NO FRENCHMEN!!!"

...but Herve was pretty damn cool. He'd be welcome if he were still alive.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 10:51 PM
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
The Free Market in Hong Kong

Would anyone be so kind as to tell me in which countries poverty was eliminated by means of your (Austrian) enlightened theories?

After the Second World War Hon Kong had no minimum wage, low and simple taxes, zero tariffs, aero capital controls, and a stable legal environment. The government in Hong Kong invested in its seaport and public education, but public spending ranged from 13-19% of GDP. Hong Kong has also avoided accumulation of public debt. Hong Kong actually ran budget surpluses in 32 years between 1948 and 1985. Hong Kong is an excellent example of a free market-limited government society, but how well did this example of laissez faire work?


At the end of the Second World War per capita income was 180$. BY 1982 the per capital income of Hong Kong was 6,000$. Even the lowest 20% of Hong Kong households reached 1300$ per capita income by 1976- seven times the average income just after the war. From the mid fifties to the 1970?s Real wages in Hong Kong more than doubled, and unemployment fell below 3%.


From 1948 to 1960 Hong Kong?s GDP grew at a rate of 7% per year.



From 1961 to 1980 Hong Kong?s GDP grew 9% per year. From 1979 to 1984 Hong Kong?s GDP grew 7.6%, despite a worldwide recession. All of this happened without foreign direct aid of any kind.

Postwar Hong Kong went as far with economic laissez faire as any other country in history. This resulted in economic development that benefited virtually all the people of Hong Kong. Living standards increased substantially even for the poorest people in Hong Kong.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2009, 11:32 PM
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I understand the infatuation with utterly free markets. In fact, I'm very opposed to trade protectionism and tariffs.

Nonetheless, as I've said for years, if you want to see totally free markets at work, go to a bazaar in any third-world nation on earth. Completely free markets are not the best way to go in every land, nor at every time.

I don't like the direction Congress is going, though, with all the pork (and I wish more of it were infrastructure construction pork as opposed to some of the crapola that is being loaded into the "stimulus"). And the nations of the world moving toward protectionism because of fear - that's very bad news indeed.
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Old 02-14-2009, 05:37 PM
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Having the honor to select among the three cabinet positions of Defense, Justice and Treasury, I would be honored to look over the defense of Freedom Island and defend her from any encroaching Keynesian economists and other hostile elements.
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Old 02-14-2009, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tresselbeliever View Post
Having the honor to select among the three cabinet positions of Defense, Justice and Treasury, I would be honored to look over the defense of Freedom Island and defend her from any encroaching Keynesian economists and other hostile elements.


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bigwoof is pretty radical


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