Reds Tidbits (2009 season)

[ScriptOhio]

Originally Posted by Bucky Katt

If they had signed this guy yo be the #8 hitter, fine.....but lead-off because he's fast? Christ, fellas. Get into the 21st [censored]ing century, already.

You mean I can't call them the Redlegs anymore?

[Bucky Katt]

Originally Posted by ScriptOhio

You mean I can't call them the Redlegs anymore?

Sure you can.

I just prefer to call them worthless bastards.

[crazybuckfan40]

This is much better than Patterson IMHO...Patterson was payed 3Mil...

If WT can keep his OBP around say 330 or higher, we are looking at a guy that can steal a base about every time he is on...He was 68/75 last year...

The offense isn't going to be great...We are looking at...

WT
BP
JV
JB
EE
CD
RH
SS (still don't know here)
P

So we are truly going to depend on Votto and Bruce to give us any offense, but if we can manufacture runs with speed and from WT, BP, and CD we are looking at a very good defensive team...Probably the best one we have seen here in a while...

An outfield of CD, WT, and JB means that not many balls are getting down in the outfield, and if we get a solid defensive SS we are strong up the middle other than catcher...And BPhil and EE are good with the glove...

And our pitching staff is very good...

I am hoping that Todd Frazier could be ready midseason to come up and take over LF and then you can have a good fourth outfielder in Dickerson or WT...Or we sign a LF and then we have a good 4th outfielder to start the season...

[mercer_buckeye]

Breakout Player in 2008 - Edwin Encarnacion!!!!

Just like the last 3 [censored]ing years.

[Jaxbuck]

Originally Posted by crazybuckfan40

This is much better than Patterson IMHO...Patterson was payed 3Mil...

If WT can keep his OBP around say 330 or higher, we are looking at a guy that can steal a base about every time he is on...He was 68/75 last year...

The offense isn't going to be great...We are looking at...

For his career WT runs himself into yet another out over 25% of the time he actually does reach base. Last year was the outlier. If he does indeed repeat it then this is only slightly less horrible.

A .330 OBP for an everday leadoff hitter is well below NL average, its just awful and he'll have to work to get there. The benchmark is .350 and I'm not going to hold my breath on that one. Again, if he can somehow pull that miracle out of his ass this isn't so bad.

Defensively this guy isn't the GG some are making him out to be, Patterson is clearly the better defensive CF in every measurable defensive metric.

There is just no way to polish this turd. Unless WT has BY FAR his best career year he is an out machine that will take up 600-700 AB's a year for the next 2 years for an offense that was severly challenged to score runs already. If you are just looking for a fast guy who can't hit to play CF he was already in house, why go pay for one?

As far as the rest of the motley crew goes from what WJ is saying you are looking at a Hariston JR/Hopper LF and A-Gon at SS. So there are 3 offensive black holes in addition to the pitcher pretty much every night.

Bruce, Votto and EE will all have to turn into Pujols this year for this team to score more than 650 runs. Yes the pitching and defense are better but all the new regime has done is find a way to lose 90+ games a year 3-1 instead of 10-7.

The funny thing is we will have a bunch of fast scrappy guys who run out to their position and get their uniforms dirty while we still suck ass and Marty's minions will not be able to figure out why.

[Honor&Glory]

Originally Posted by Jaxbuck

For his career WT runs himself into yet another out over 25% of the time he actually does reach base. Last year was the outlier. If he does indeed repeat it then this is only slightly less horrible.

A .330 OBP for an everday leadoff hitter is well below NL average, its just awful and he'll have to work to get there. The benchmark is .350 and I'm not going to hold my breath on that one. Again, if he can somehow pull that miracle out of his ass this isn't so bad.

Defensively this guy isn't the GG some are making him out to be, Patterson is clearly the better defensive CF in every measurable defensive metric.

There is just no way to polish this turd. Unless WT has BY FAR his best career year he is an out machine that will take up 600-700 AB's a year for the next 2 years for an offense that was severly challenged to score runs already. If you are just looking for a fast guy who can't hit to play CF he was already in house, why go pay for one?

As far as the rest of the motley crew goes from what WJ is saying you are looking at a Hariston JR/Hopper LF and A-Gon at SS. So there are 3 offensive black holes in addition to the pitcher pretty much every night.

Bruce, Votto and EE will all have to turn into Pujols this year for this team to score more than 650 runs. Yes the pitching and defense are better but all the new regime has done is find a way to lose 90+ games a year 3-1 instead of 10-7.

The funny thing is we will have a bunch of fast scrappy guys who run out to their position and get their uniforms dirty while we still suck ass and Marty's minions will not be able to figure out why.

speaking of polishing turds...I am only going to say that I've seen enough of Dunn, Griffey, Connine, etc...in the Reds lineup since GAPB opened. Don't you think with all the power that was supplied over the years and the resluts (losing seasons) stay the same that maybe, just maybe a different approach is warrented?
Doesn't Hernandez average 18 HR's a year? if Gonzalez is healthy he's a guy capable of hitting HR's and BP is a 25 HR guy...I'm sorry, but I fail to see the 'sky is falling' mentality for the Reds offense because of this signing. I do, however, see an improved defense and a more dynamic way for the Reds to create runs other than three run HR's. I'm good with it. As for the Corey Patterson comparrison...well, in 8 seasons, Patterson's career OBP is .297 and he stole 182 bases...Taveras, in four years has an OBP of .331 and has stolen 169 bases. The numbers that I find most interesting were is OBP and Avg in Houston which seem to be closer to what the Reds will get...which is around .265 and an OBP around .333...if he does that and steals 65 bases in front of Philips, Bruce and Votto, I'll take it.

[Jaxbuck]

Originally Posted by Honor&Glory

I am only going to say that I've seen enough of Dunn, Griffey, Connine, etc...in the Reds lineup since GAPB opened. Don't you think with all the power that was supplied over the years and the resluts (losing seasons) stay the same that maybe, just maybe a different approach is warrented?

Did we lose those years because we scored a lot of runs or because we had some of the worst pitching staffs in MLB history? I'm sorry but leading the NL in runs scored was not the reason we were losing. Marty and the Reds media would have you think it was but it was not.

Run differential is simply the name of the game, if you score less than you allow you will not win. The current Reds staff is good but its nowhere near the level it would have to be to offset the lack of runs this team will produce.

Like I said before, all you will see with the new approach is losing the same number of games by scores of 3-1 instead of 10-7. The difference is Marty and company will be happier because it will resemble the style of baseball they like.

[Honor&Glory]

Originally Posted by Jaxbuck

Did we lose those years because we scored a lot of runs or because we had some of the worst pitching staffs in MLB history? I'm sorry but leading the NL in runs scored was not the reason we were losing. Marty and the Reds media would have you think it was but it was not.

Run differential is simply the name of the game, if you score less than you allow you will not win. The current Reds staff is good but its nowhere near the level it would have to be to offset the lack of runs this team will produce.

Like I said before, all you will see with the new approach is losing the same number of games by scores of 3-1 instead of 10-7. The difference is Marty and company will be happier because it will resemble the style of baseball they like.

The Reds pitching wasn't all that bad last year...more importantly when Griffey, Dunn, EE and company went into a collective slump the team had zero chance to manufacture runs...and when Hairston was injured it was even worse. How many times was that 'potent' offense chuck full of power shut out last year? a whopping 8 times before the trade deadline and only twice after it. Pitching and defense win championships. The Reds for too long have forgotten what they had in 1990 and in 1999...a great blanance between pitching, speed, power, defense and bench play. I'm sick of waiting for the 3 run homer. I've seen 6 years of that bull[censored]...I want a baseball team to root for again, not a beer league softball squad.

[Jaxbuck]

Originally Posted by Honor&Glory

The Reds pitching wasn't all that bad last year...more importantly when Griffey, Dunn, EE and company went into a collective slump the team had zero chance to manufacture runs...and when Hairston was injured it was even worse. How many times was that 'potent' offense chuck full of power shut out last year? a whopping 8 times before the trade deadline and only twice after it. Pitching and defense win championships. The Reds for too long have forgotten what they had in 1990 and in 1999...a great blanance between pitching, speed, power, defense and bench play. I'm sick of waiting for the 3 run homer. I've seen 6 years of that bull[censored]...I want a baseball team to root for again, not a beer league softball squad.

Last years offense sucked regardless of style because they didn't score runs and yes the pitching is much better. Small ball vs 3-run homer doesn't matter, I just want runs scored.

The good offenses we had from 2000-2006 were not the reason we lost. Go look up the numbers, those pitching staffs were some of the worst ever put on a MLB field. No exaggeration. Give the best offense in any league a good pitching staff and they will win I promise you.

Cincy fans and media still suffer from Pete Rose envy. Give them 25 scrappy little white guys with dirty uniforms and marginal talent and the fans would be happy. They wouldn't win for [censored] and would be utterly perplexed as to why not.

If your fervent desire is to go root for a certain style of offense then you are going to get your wish. They won't win anymore than they have in the past but it will be the style so many in Cincy seem to long for.

Personally I'm just a fan of winning, I don't really care how they do it. In order to win you must score more runs than you allow. Having out machines in LF, CF, SS and C with just average offensive talent to offset them isn't how you score more runs than you prevent. The pitching staff is good but its not that good.

[Honor&Glory]

Originally Posted by Jaxbuck

Last years offense sucked regardless of style because they didn't score runs and yes the pitching is much better. Small ball vs 3-run homer doesn't matter, I just want runs scored.

The good offenses we had from 2000-2006 were not the reason we lost. Go look up the numbers, those pitching staffs were some of the worst ever put on a MLB field. No exaggeration. Give the best offense in any league a good pitching staff and they will win I promise you.

Cincy fans and media still suffer from Pete Rose envy. Give them 25 scrappy little white guys with dirty uniforms and marginal talent and the fans would be happy. They wouldn't win for [censored] and would be utterly perplexed as to why not.

If your fervent desire is to go root for a certain style of offense then you are going to get your wish. They won't win anymore than they have in the past but it will be the style so many in Cincy seem to long for.

Personally I'm just a fan of winning, I don't really care how they do it. In order to win you must score more runs than you allow. Having out machines in LF, CF, SS and C with just average offensive talent to offset them isn't how you score more runs than you prevent. The pitching staff is good but its not that good.

I don't recall the 1990 Reds or the 1999 Reds being filled with 25 scrappy white guys. But I can see why you would say that...however, if you mean 'the style so many in Cincy seem to long for' as a slam, you're off base. people here want a winner and realize the offense that the Reds have rolled out since Sean Casey was in his prime was slow, reliant on the long ball and incapable of playing effective small ball the way the 90 and 99 teams did. Jim Bowden built that piece of crap ball park to be that way and the GM's that have followed felt the need to stock it accordingly. Sorry we disagree on this, but at least we do agree that we want the Reds to win again.

and, for the record, Greg Vaughn, Mike Cameron, Jeffrey Hammonds, Pokey Reese, Barry Larkin, Mariano Duncan, Billy Hatcher, Eric Davis...you remember those guys, right? weren't 'scrappy little white guys...' They were solid ball players that could run, play defense and bring things to the table that Adam Dunn has wet dreams about being able to do.

[Jaxbuck]

Originally Posted by Honor&Glory

I don't recall the 1990 Reds or the 1999 Reds being filled with 25 scrappy white guys. But I can see why you would say that...however, if you mean 'the style so many in Cincy seem to long for' as a slam, you're off base. people here want a winner and realize the offense that the Reds have rolled out since Sean Casey was in his prime was slow, reliant on the long ball and incapable of playing effective small ball the way the 90 and 99 teams did. Jim Bowden built that piece of crap ball park to be that way and the GM's that have followed felt the need to stock it accordingly. Sorry we disagree on this, but at least we do agree that we want the Reds to win again.

and, for the record, Greg Vaughn, Mike Cameron, Jeffrey Hammonds, Pokey Reese, Barry Larkin, Mariano Duncan, Billy Hatcher, Eric Davis...you remember those guys, right? weren't 'scrappy little white guys...' They were solid ball players that could run, play defense and bring things to the table that Adam Dunn has wet dreams about being able to do.

Well like I said, if you think not playing small ball the past 10 years has been the problem you are in for a treat this year.

As far as going on the record and comparing some of those names to Dunn you are really showing some serious prejudice. I'll just touch on one and leave it at that but here is Greg Vaughn vs Adam Dunn careers by the numbers:

Vaughn: 337/470/242/807
Dunn: 381/518/247/899

Vaughn hit 40+ HR's in a season exactly twice in his career, Dunn's done it 4 years in a row and counting. So Dunn makes less outs per PA, collects more bases when he gets a hit, has more power and even hits for better average. He also takes more walks and scores more runs.

But yeah I can see how he could have dreams of being as good as Greg freakin Vaughn.

The prejudice this teams fan's have against Adam Dunn is sickening. Hearing complete bunk like this(which is simply 100% pure fresh squeezed Marty venom) makes me think this fanbase has exactly the type of team they deserve.

Yeah, lets blame the losing on scoring all those nasty runs because we don't like the style they were scoring them in and completely ignore the fact that we had the worst pitching staff in baseball all those years.

The losing couldn't possibly be due to the [censored]ty pitching allowing more runs than we could score could it? Nah, we were losing all those years because the top scoring offense in the NL struck out too much and Dunn didn't run out to LF. [censored]ing brilliant.

Anyway, I'm done beating my head in a brick wall over this tired old argument. If people want to form opinions completely irregardless of facts then I'm dumber for arguing with them.

Here are the facts going into 2009.

The team allowed 800 runs last year which was worse than all but 3 teams in the NL.

The team scored 704 runs which was better than only 4 teams in the NL.

The pitching isn't anywhere near as good as people are talking themselves into it being and the [censored]ty offense just got a whole lot worse. Pitching and defense are going to get better this year? Fine I'll go along and pretend it will happen just because we want it to. Is it going to get over 96 runs better? Not a chance in hell. And that if the offense can score 704 again which it will not as it is currently constructed.

So another summer of watching sub 500 baseball is on its way because the Reds will score fewer runs than they allow. The difference this year is all the fans who blamed the losing on the type of offense we had the past few years are going to have to rationalize why we are still losing. The good news is they will get more enjoyment out of the losing because it will be done in the style that Marty and their tee ball coaches taught them is the "right" way to play the game.

Good times.

[Honor&Glory]

Originally Posted by Jaxbuck

Well like I said, if you think not playing small ball the past 10 years has been the problem you are in for a treat this year.

As far as going on the record and comparing some of those names to Dunn you are really showing some serious prejudice. I'll just touch on one and leave it at that but here is Greg Vaughn vs Adam Dunn careers by the numbers:

Vaughn: 337/470/242/807
Dunn: 381/518/247/899

Vaughn hit 40+ HR's in a season exactly twice in his career, Dunn's done it 4 years in a row and counting. So Dunn makes less outs per PA, collects more bases when he gets a hit, has more power and even hits for better average. He also takes more walks and scores more runs.

But yeah I can see how he could have dreams of being as good as Greg freakin Vaughn.

The prejudice this teams fan's have against Adam Dunn is sickening. Hearing complete bunk like this(which is simply 100% pure fresh squeezed Marty venom) makes me think this fanbase has exactly the type of team they deserve.

Yeah, lets blame the losing on scoring all those nasty runs because we don't like the style they were scoring them in and completely ignore the fact that we had the worst pitching staff in baseball all those years.

The losing couldn't possibly be due to the [censored]ty pitching allowing more runs than we could score could it? Nah, we were losing all those years because the top scoring offense in the NL struck out too much and Dunn didn't run out to LF. [censored]ing brilliant.

Anyway, I'm done beating my head in a brick wall over this tired old argument. If people want to form opinions completely irregardless of facts then I'm dumber for arguing with them.

Here are the facts going into 2009.

The team allowed 800 runs last year which was worse than all but 3 teams in the NL.

The team scored 704 runs which was better than only 4 teams in the NL.

The pitching isn't anywhere near as good as people are talking themselves into it being and the [censored]ty offense just got a whole lot worse. Pitching and defense are going to get better this year? Fine I'll go along and pretend it will happen just because we want it to. Is it going to get over 96 runs better? Not a chance in hell. And that if the offense can score 704 again which it will not as it is currently constructed.

So another summer of watching sub 500 baseball is on its way because the Reds will score fewer runs than they allow. The difference this year is all the fans who blamed the losing on the type of offense we had the past few years are going to have to rationalize why we are still losing. The good news is they will get more enjoyment out of the losing because it will be done in the style that Marty and their tee ball coaches taught them is the "right" way to play the game.

Good times.

How many games did the Reds finish over .500 with your beloved Mr. Dunn hitting his 40 HR's and hitting in the .220's? oh, sorry, it's ALL the pitchers fault...nevermind that Dunn left runners on 3rd base with less than two outs at a clip only Bob Uecker could be proud of...You also sell Greg Vaughn short...he was here for one full season, produced 44 hr's and took over the leadership role of keeping the club house together that Barry Larking couldn't or wouldn't do. It was Greg Vaugh who got Reds pitchers to throw inside and hit opposing batters in retaliation...when is the last time you saw a Reds pitcher do that since he was allowed to walk?? You want to play a straight up 'fantasy' baseball numbers game, go right ahead. Real Reds fans embrace the intangibles it really takes to win games. Put down your 'How to win at fantasy baseball' book and realize what it takes to win real baseball games...last time I checked, the Devil Rays didn't have any 40 homer guys last year. Enjoy rooting for the Dunner in LA or Chicago next year. We Reds fans will watch the continued growth and renovation of this Reds team from 'Fantasy Softball' to 'Professional Baseball' team.
I'm done beating my head against the wall, too.

[Jaxbuck]

Originally Posted by Honor&Glory

.last time I checked, the Devil Rays didn't have any 40 homer guys last year..

And nowhere did I ever say 40 HR guys are neccessary. I have said many times small ball or long ball the name of the game is to outscore the opposition. The style of how its done is irrelevant.

BTW, the D-rays scored 774 runs last year and they allowed only 671. Thats why they won, not due to the lack of a 40 HR guy.

How something this simple is so hard for some people to grasp is shocking.

[schwab]

You are both making good points, and I can see it from both sides. The stadium is built for homeruns, which means we don't need guys who project at 30 homeruns to hit 30 homeruns. I still think HR's take care of themselves in that ballpark, and unfortunately that includes when the Reds are on the hill. If we continue to build in the direction of a lineup that features defense and speed over power, we are going to accidentally end up with guys who hit a lot of homeruns anyways. We didn't bring BP in for his power numbers, but he has proved that he can put them up, and may continue it for several more years. Bruce and Votto showed in the first go round that 30 HR could end up being the norm, all while maintaining a decent average and a youthfulness that may not realize that the Reds are supposed to suck. I don't think any of these guys have been booed in their home park yet, or ripped up one side and down the other on local radio. I think their neive-ness (?) could lead to a much brighter future.

I just think beating each other up over how bad we are before the ball drops on 2009 is getting ahead of ourselves. Hope springs eternal..

[Honor&Glory]

Originally Posted by Jaxbuck

And nowhere did I ever say 40 HR guys are neccessary. I have said many times small ball or long ball the name of the game is to outscore the opposition. The style of how its done is irrelevant.

BTW, the D-rays scored 774 runs last year and they allowed only 671. Thats why they won, not due to the lack of a 40 HR guy.

How something this simple is so hard for some people to grasp is shocking.

I grasp it...I just don't buy it to the extent you're trying to sell it. Every division winner in baseball last year scored around 800 runs. I do find it curious that the Angels, the best record holder in the AL, only scored only 68 (765 to 697) more runs over the course of the season than their opponents yet won 100 games. I understand that its all about pitching, but can you honestly make the argument that the Reds pitching (4.55 team ERA last year) won't be better with Griffey and Dunn gone and a return of Gonzalez at SS with younger, faster defenders in the OF? Defense makes average pitching better. I'm willing to sacrifice the 40 HR's that you were very quick to inject into the conversation, by the way, for manufactured offense and better defense. I can't understand why some people can't grasp that with a possible exception that Dunn may have been their favorite player and they have a bone to pick with Marty about it.