Indians Tidbits (2009 season)

[buckeyemania11]

I dont think trading Shoppach is a very good idea

after him and Vmart our system is VERY thin at catcher

so unless they bring in a somewhat solid free agent catcher (which there really isnt this year) It would be incredibly stupid

[LitlBuck]

Originally Posted by tsteele316

it's really about position value. martinez's offense for a catcher is great, for a 1st baseman, not so much. shoppach's value will never be higher, and realistically, he'll probably never have another season like last year. while it may sting a bit, cleveland would be well served to trade him now if they can get something of good value in return.

Garko> Mart?nez. I don't think so. I know that Shoppach's value is very high right now but you just get mad judge him on one season. How do you know he will not hit just as well next year and he is better defensively than Victor and Mart?nez is better defensively than Garko. I know that we have young catchers in the minors but they would not be ready next year. We would have to go out and sign a free-agent catcher and what happens if Mart?nez would go down for awhile. Youth is not on his side.

[LitlBuck]

AP

Nov 11, 11:35 AM EST
Indians pitcher, broadcaster Herb Score dies

CLEVELAND (AP) -- Herb Score, the Cleveland Indians pitcher and former broadcaster whose promise on the mound was shattered by a line drive, has died. He was 75.

The team said he died at his home Tuesday in Rocky River, Ohio.
Score pitched for the Indians from 1955-59. He was the American League Rookie of the Year in 1955 after going 16-10. He went 20-9 in 1956 and twice made the All-Star team.

Score's career took a grim turn on May 7, 1957, when Gil MacDougald of the New York Yankees lined a ball off of Score's right eye, breaking his nose and facial bones. Score regained his vision but was never the same player.

Continued

This is very sad news from an Indians fan. Herb Score was not only a Cleveland Indian but a very good person. There is no telling how far his career would have gone if you would have not been struck in the eye by the ball off of the bat of MacDougald. I will never forget that night because Rocky Colavito was probably his best friend and was playing right field that night and when Score got hit Rocky ran from right field to the pitcher's mound.

Herb Score's life had so many ups and downs with being involved in a very bad traffic accident several years ago. This is just very sad news.

[BuckeyeMac]

Sad day in the Cleveland Indians Organization and fans


ESPN - Former Cleveland Indians' pitcher, broadcaster Herb Score dies

Score dies; spent his career as Indians pitcher, broadcaster

ESPN.com news services
November 11, 2008, 11:40 AM

CLEVELAND -- Herb Score, the Cleveland Indians pitcher and former broadcaster whose promise on the mound was shattered by a line drive, died Tuesday. He was 75.

Score died at his home in Rocky River, Ohio, the team said in a statement.

"Today is a sad day for the Cleveland Indians family and for Cleveland Indians fans everywhere," team president Paul Dolan said in a statement. "We have lost one of the greatest men in the history of our franchise. Generations of Indians fans owe their love of the Tribe to Herb Score, who was a powerful pitcher and legendary broadcaster. Our thoughts and prayers are with Nancy and the Family."

cont...


Herb you will be missed

[tsteele316]

Originally Posted by LitlBuck

Garko> Mart?nez. I don't think so. I know that Shoppach's value is very high right now but you just get mad judge him on one season. How do you know he will not hit just as well next year and he is better defensively than Victor and Mart?nez is better defensively than Garko. I know that we have young catchers in the minors but they would not be ready next year. We would have to go out and sign a free-agent catcher and what happens if Mart?nez would go down for awhile. Youth is not on his side.

where did I ever say garko > martinez?

shoppach's career thus far in the majors, as well as his minor league stats would lead you to believe that he's unlikely to replicate what he did in '08.

then, all the fans whining about not trading him now will be complaining about not getting max value for him when they could have. you obviously don't trade him just to trade him, but he's possibly one of the most valuable trade chips cleveland has at the moment.

and last year, he was worse defensively than martinez.

[LitlBuck]

Originally Posted by tsteele316

where did I ever say garko > martinez?

shoppach's career thus far in the majors, as well as his minor league stats would lead you to believe that he's unlikely to replicate what he did in '08.

then, all the fans whining about not trading him now will be complaining about not getting max value for him when they could have. you obviously don't trade him just to trade him, but he's possibly one of the most valuable trade chips cleveland has at the moment.

and last year, he was worse defensively than martinez.

Martinez and Shopach would be much better defensively than Martinez and Garko.

I don't care. If you want to trade him, please do so and then just hope nothing happens to Martinez. Speaking of value,

Garko's should be pretty high right now with his RBI total from last season but that's just my opinion.

[tsteele316]

Originally Posted by LitlBuck

Martinez and Shopach would be much better defensively than Martinez and Garko.

I don't care. If you want to trade him, please do so and then just hope nothing happens to Martinez. Speaking of value,

Garko's should be pretty high right now with his RBI total from last season but that's just my opinion.

garko had one good month. otherwise, he's a slow, defensively poor, singles hiting 1st baseman. garko's value was definately higher after '07 than it is now.

and nobody is contesting that martinez+shoppach > martinez+garko. it would be assumed that cleveland would either retain sal fasano for another year, or get a backup catcher should they trade shoppach.

and, to be accurate, your equation would have to include whatever cleveland got in return for shoppach. so, it would be garko+martinez+shoppach return > martinez+shoppach.

[LitlBuck]

Let me get this straight. You want to trade Shopach and keep

garko had one good month. otherwise, he's a slow, defensively poor, singles hiting 1st baseman.

You also want to keep Fasano as your backup catcher or pick up a FA catcher and there are plenty of good ones available. So Martinez gets injured and we have Fasano at catcher or Garko gets injured and we have Fasano at catcher. I guess I do not understand how many more games you think Martinez can catch the rest of his career. I know we have some young guys in the minors but they will not be ready next year and possibly even the year after that. I think trading Shopach would be a very bad deal unless we could get very high value for him and for that to happen I am sure we would have to package him.

[tsteele316]

Originally Posted by LitlBuck

Let me get this straight. You want to trade Shopach and keep
You also want to keep Fasano as your backup catcher or pick up a FA catcher and there are plenty of good ones available. So Martinez gets injured and we have Fasano at catcher or Garko gets injured and we have Fasano at catcher. I guess I do not understand how many more games you think Martinez can catch the rest of his career. I know we have some young guys in the minors but they will not be ready next year and possibly even the year after that. I think trading Shopach would be a very bad deal unless we could get very high value for him and for that to happen I am sure we would have to package him.

clearly fasano isn't the optimal solution. but cleveland has a few catchers that will be ready for the show by '10 at the latest. again, where have i said I want to keep garko? he's on borrowed time.

as i've said, if martinez is cleveland's immediate future at catcher, they will be best served to deal shoppach as his value will not be higher. not to mention i believe he's coming up for arbitration in the near future.

chances are, one of the two will happen:

1. he'll revert back to his historic numbers, decrease his trade value, and you'll complain for not trading him when his value was high.

2. he'll stay, and possibly maintain his current trend, get a buttload of cash in arbitration and then walk, and you'll complain that cleveland should have traded him when his value was highest.

[LitlBuck]

Originally Posted by tsteele316

clearly fasano isn't the optimal solution. but cleveland has a few catchers that will be ready for the show by '10 at the latest. again, where have i said I want to keep garko? he's on borrowed time.

as i've said, if martinez is cleveland's immediate future at catcher, they will be best served to deal shoppach as his value will not be higher. not to mention i believe he's coming up for arbitration in the near future.

chances are, one of the two will happen:

1. he'll revert back to his historic numbers, decrease his trade value, and you'll complain for not trading him when his value was high.

2. he'll stay, and possibly maintain his current trend, get a buttload of cash in arbitration and then walk, and you'll complain that cleveland should have traded him when his value was highest.

I will not complain if they do not trade Shopach. My question to you is who is going to play first base next year if you are not going to keep Garko.

The young catchers who will be available in 2010 will not help us next year if something happens to Victor.

[LitlBuck]

PD

Indians' search for closer gains a few options
by Paul Hoynes/Plain Dealer Reporter
Tuesday November 11, 2008, 7:58 PM

The Indians' search for a closer has gained an option. Another option could come into focus as soon as the Colorado Rockies' trade of Matt Holliday to the Oakland Athletics becomes official.

When the San Diego Padres took their $4 million offer to Trevor Hoffman off the table late last week, it triggered a reaction in the executive offices of Progressive Field.

"When negotiations between Trevor Hoffman and the Padres didn't work out, he became an alternative for us," said Tribe GM Mark Shapiro.
Hoffman, 41, is baseball's all-time saves leader. He saved 30 games in 45 1/3 innings last season.

The Rockies reportedly had traded Holliday, who can be a free agent after next season, to Oakland for left-hander Greg Smith, outfielder Carlos Gonzalez and closer Huston Street. The trade could be become official today as soon as the players involved pass their respective physicals.
Continued

The Indians are interested in Hudson Street and also have talked to Colorado about their third baseman Garrett Atkins. I have no idea what Atkins brings to the table. I really have never heard of him before this article.

[AKAKBUCK]

Originally Posted by LitlBuck

I will not complain if they do not trade Shopach. My question to you is who is going to play first base next year if you are not going to keep Garko.

I would imagine that they point of trading Shoppach is to strengthen another position... notably first base.

I agree that the time to move Shoppach is now, but only for the right deal... and... if that deal includes a 1B-- or some combination of deals, that's the point of improving the club overall...

Obviously if someone wants to give us a CF for Shoppach, there's not much point to that... we've got one of those. Nor would the point be to trade him for a bunch of journeyman relievers. This is where you find someone who has a 1B behind a star, but no catcher... like when Pronk was behind Texiera in Texas... something like that.

No one is saying to trade the guy just for the sake of doing it.

[LitlBuck]

Originally Posted by AKAKBUCK

I would imagine that they point of trading Shoppach is to strengthen another position... notably first base.

I agree that the time to move Shoppach is now, but only for the right deal... and... if that deal includes a 1B-- or some combination of deals, that's the point of improving the club overall...

Obviously if someone wants to give us a CF for Shoppach, there's not much point to that... we've got one of those. Nor would the point be to trade him for a bunch of journeyman relievers. This is where you find someone who has a 1B behind a star, but no catcher... like when Pronk was behind Texiera in Texas... something like that.

No one is saying to trade the guy just for the sake of doing it.

I understand what you are saying but I would rather try and move Garko and one of our younger guys rather than Shopach assuming we can get the same quality. I would like to see them move Victor to first. I guess what I don't understand is how can someone say a player will never play at the same level that he played last season. In my mind, that is really a crap shoot. I guess my point is that I am not satisfied going into next season with Garko as our first baseman.

They are looking at a couple of 3rd baseman in free agency including Casey Blake but Casey wants a three-year deal so I don't know about that but we do need a third baseman.

[tsteele316]

Originally Posted by LitlBuck

I understand what you are saying but I would rather try and move Garko and one of our younger guys rather than Shopach assuming we can get the same quality. I would like to see them move Victor to first. I guess what I don't understand is how can someone say a player will never play at the same level that he played last season. In my mind, that is really a crap shoot. I guess my point is that I am not satisfied going into next season with Garko as our first baseman.

They are looking at a couple of 3rd baseman in free agency including Casey Blake but Casey wants a three-year deal so I don't know about that but we do need a third baseman.

the fatal flaw is assuming that garko has value anywhere close to what shoppach has. and, going by shoppach's career stats and minor league stats up until now, his '08 season is an outlier. Assuming he would regress is logical. assuming he'll match that production would be akin to assuming that both raffys would match their '07 performances in the bullpen.

[LitlBuck]

Originally Posted by tsteele316

the fatal flaw is assuming that garko has value anywhere close to what shoppach has. and, going by shoppach's career stats and minor league stats up until now, his '08 season is an outlier. Assuming he would regress is logical. assuming he'll match that production would be akin to assuming that both raffys would match their '07 performances in the bullpen.

I guess what I am asking and it hasn't been answered is if everyone is satisfied with keeping Garko at first base next season. I know that his value is lower right now than Shopach's but if everyone is happy with Garko at first base then trade Shopach. I also do not think you can judge a player by past performance because every once in awhile the light does go on for a player.