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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 06-07-2009, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeMike80 View Post
Free trade of the player? They are free to go to Europe immediately after high school if they wish. No one is preventing that. There's no laws there, just a collective bargaining agreement which is legally binding. that's not a law.
Free to go to Europe and play for substantialy less money is not free trade and you know it. If you were restricted as to where you could work, who you could work for, how much you could be paid, or how long you had to remain with an employer you'd feel cheated, yet you believe athletes should be happy with such a deal.

Quote:
Funny, if you are so bent out of shape by the colleges doing what they do to admit good athletes, you should stop watching them. either that or become a Ntre Ame fan
Yep, a real inconsistency on my part. You may have noticed earlier in this thread where I mentioned my dichotomy. My love for Buckeye football does not keep me from seeing the negative aspects of college sports.

By the way, you seem to have ducked my questions about how "fair" the draft has been to Troy Smith and Pittman, or how it was "fair" for Manning to demand that he not be drafted by San Diego?
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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeMike80 View Post
BTW I see it as protecting their product. It was pretty clear the NBA was declining in overall mature talent due to the influx of project high-schoolers and the bottom line was suffering and is still suffering because of it.
Or maybe its a case of the product being placed in too many venues, a game that has turned from basketball to street ball, inconsistent officiating, a season that runs from October to July... I'll leave that up to those of you who watch and enjoy NBA basketball. I haven't watched more than 10 minutes of it in three decades.
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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
I haven't watched more than 10 minutes of it in three decades.
It was street ball in the 80s?

Or you're just not very interested in pro basketball?
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 06-07-2009, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB73 View Post
...there's no requirement for the HS graduate to do anything other than turn 19 - he doesn't have to do anything in that year after HS besides get older.

To me, that's age discrimination, which shouldn't be allowed against anybody over 18 years old in this country.
Given that Congress still has minimum age requirements, it would be ironic if they were to intervene on this ...
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:03 PM
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So Cinci is fighting the legality of it...

So lets go back to the can they restrict a player based on age...I honestly don't see why not, because they are basing that on a qualification...

race, religion, sex has nothing to do with whether you can play basketball or not...But to further better the NBA's product...age is something that plays into bettering the product...

Obvoiusly there are exceptions to the rule where you have guys like LBJ who could play at the age of 18 in the league, but you can't argue the fact that at the age of 20 vs. 18 that probably 95% of players are better....The teams drafting have a better idea of the talent, the players have shown more of their game, will they reach their potential etc...

It is no different than a firm saying you must have a college degree to work here...It is all about the business, firm etc setting qualifications to better the product that they have...

And I totally agree with Litl and his baseball draft solution...
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 06-07-2009, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazybuckfan40 View Post

So lets go back to the can they restrict a player based on age...I honestly don't see why not, because they are basing that on a qualification...

race, religion, sex has nothing to do with whether you can play basketball or not...But to further better the NBA's product...age is something that plays into bettering the product...

Obvoiusly there are exceptions to the rule where you have guys like LBJ who could play at the age of 18 in the league, but you can't argue the fact that at the age of 20 vs. 18 that probably 95% of players are better....The teams drafting have a better idea of the talent, the players have shown more of their game, will they reach their potential etc...

It is no different than a firm saying you must have a college degree to work here...It is all about the business, firm etc setting qualifications to better the product that they have...

And I totally agree with Litl and his baseball draft solution...
Players are tested for skills in pre-draft workouts. The skills, plus legally being an adult (18+), should be the only qualifications they need to play in the NBA.

Nobody forces any NBA team to draft an 18-year old kid. But the league forces teams NOT to be able to.

I still feel it's age discrimination, justified by a CBA that was agreed to by players already in the league and thus not affected by the agreement (already being over 19). I know there is current legal justification to do that, but to me that was an incorrect ruling.

I realize in most cases the kids are better off having to wait, but I don't believe they should be able to take away the right of an adult to work solely on the basis of his age.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the topic.
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 07:43 AM
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A worker's rights, in my opinion, are completely overplayed in situations like this...

As you all know, I'm as liberal as the next guy, but in my opinion there is nothing that prevents the NBA from setting it's minimum qualifications as it sees fit, as long as its minimum standards do not run afoul of the law. If the NBA can find a way to say that minimum age is important to some league specific thing, then fine by me.

I can't decide one day that I want to be a doctor and walk in to a hospital and get such a job. There are minimum qualifications.

I can't walk in to a school and become a history teacher....

I can't just decide "hey, now I'm a fireman"

So, in my mind all this "these kids are being told who and when they can work their jobs" is overstated. They're not being foreclosed forever. They're being told no for 2 years.

Maybe the NBA has an interest in a player having 2 years of college? I mean, the county Sheriff often demands that his employees have a GED... so why can't the NBA say we need two years of college? Maybe they are better equipped to represent the league? I don't know.. But, it sounds perfectly legitimate to me, and well within their purview to decide.
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 09:06 AM
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I don't think the examples of doctors or history teachers are the same situation. If you've completed medical school or have your teaching degree by age 18, shouldn't the employers have the right to hire you if they choose to? That's what the NBA rules prevent.

But in order to lose my own debate, I thought of the example of pilots, who are qualified to do their job and even have experience; and they can be told by the airlines that they have to retire at an age earlier than the normal retirement age.

So if an industry can do that on the basis of age, the NBA can do it at the other end of the age.
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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB73 View Post
Players are tested for skills in pre-draft workouts. The skills, plus legally being an adult (18+), should be the only qualifications they need to play in the NBA.

Nobody forces any NBA team to draft an 18-year old kid. But the league forces teams NOT to be able to.

I still feel it's age discrimination, justified by a CBA that was agreed to by players already in the league and thus not affected by the agreement (already being over 19). I know there is current legal justification to do that, but to me that was an incorrect ruling.

I realize in most cases the kids are better off having to wait, but I don't believe they should be able to take away the right of an adult to work solely on the basis of his age.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the topic.
Yep. It's a contract signed between two parties that limits the rights of a third, unrepresented, party.
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  #160 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
I don't think the examples of doctors or history teachers are the same situation. If you've completed medical school or have your teaching degree by age 18, shouldn't the employers have the right to hire you if they choose to? That's what the NBA rules prevent.

But in order to lose my own debate, I thought of the example of pilots, who are qualified to do their job and even have experience; and they can be told by the airlines that they have to retire at an age earlier than the normal retirement age.

So if an industry can do that on the basis of age, the NBA can do it at the other end of the age.
It's not a question of "can an employer do this," it's a question of "should an employer be able to do this."
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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cincibuck View Post
It's not a question of "can an employer do this," it's a question of "should an employer be able to do this."
Yeah, to me, the doctor example would be the AMA, or some medical/hospital organization, telling hospitals they couldn't hire an 18-year old that has completed medical school.
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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB73 View Post
Yeah, to me, the doctor example would be the AMA, or some medical/hospital organization, telling hospitals they couldn't hire an 18-year old that has completed medical school.
How about the Army refusing to enlist a 16-year-old HS grad who can meet all their physical requirements? Or the Navy/Marines requiring you to be 19 to enter flight training? I'm just not seeing your analogy between age and race/religion--there are real physical/mental/emotional distinctions based on age, and this would be just one of many situations where a person has to reach a certain age to receive a particular entitlement.
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayBuck View Post
How about the Army refusing to enlist a 16-year-old HS grad who can meet all their physical requirements? Or the Navy/Marines requiring you to be 19 to enter flight training? I'm just not seeing your analogy between age and race/religion--there are real physical/mental/emotional distinctions based on age, and this would be just one of many situations where a person has to reach a certain age to receive a particular entitlement.
I'm using 18 as the basis for adulthood. The 19-year old limit for flight training in the military is a good example, I wasn't aware of that one.

But a couple of posts ago I already used the pilot example on the other end of the age spectrum as an example of why my earlier position could be shot down.
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  #164 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 02:10 PM
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Bill, the issue is what we're calling the minimum requirements (and if that limit has a relationship to the job, of course). That is to say, a 16 year old who has completed medical school and whatever other requirements can be a Doctor and his age is a non factor. However, I don't see any reason why the NBA cannot make a minimum age requirement relevant to its product. (in other words, I don't disagree with you, but I think you glossed over the real issue - if age is a legit minimum requirement, like completing med school for Doctors)

In the NFL, it's easier to see because physical development of a player is more important (and 18 year old kid taking shots from a 28 year old man seems to be a legit safety issue, for example). But, I won't say the NBA has no similar reason for an age requirement. Likewise, they could just as easily accomplish their "age limit" by saying all players need X years of college (or equivalent) - or even say every player needs a degree, if the wanted - to qualify for employment with the league. I don't know that this is necessarily a good idea, but it would be lawful.

Cinci makes a couple a important points -
1) Two parties contracting away the rights of unrepresented third parties.
and
2) "should" employers do it.

As to the first, because the league has a CBA, and all players have to join the players union (I may be wrong on that, but I think I'm right), they are actually "represented" and protected by law.

As to the second, I guess I'm in no position to say what the NBA should or should not do. League Commissioners are given a great deal of latitude in determining what's best for their leagues in the interest of those leagues.... So, if the Commissioner thinks its best for the product, I'm hard pressed to argue otherwise.
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  #165 (permalink)  
Old 06-08-2009, 02:20 PM
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BKB, I made the point about the unrepresented parties in the post when I joined the conversation a couple of days ago. But I would contend that the not-yet-drafted players ane not represented, since they aren't yet able to join the union, and its members are forcing the not-yet-drafted players to wait, in order to keep a bigger piece of the league revenue pie for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BB73 View Post
I've also always had a problem with a sports league agreeing with its current players to make an age rule that excludes outsiders, but not those making the agreement, from participating in the league based on age. If they tried to exclude athletes over 38 years of age, they'd lose that lawsuit in a heartbeat. But when they restrict it to those under 19, and justify it legally as part of the league's CBA with the players union, it's supposedly OK. Members of the union approve it because it increases the career length of those already in the union, while temporarily excluding those with the skills to play in the league solely based on age. In my thinking that shouldn't be legal.
But I've already convinced myself that it's OK that the age restriction is legal, with my post about the pilots earlier today.

So everybody can stop trying to convince me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BB73
But in order to lose my own debate, I thought of the example of pilots, who are qualified to do their job and even have experience; and they can be told by the airlines that they have to retire at an age earlier than the normal retirement age.

So if an industry can do that on the basis of age, the NBA can do it at the other end of the age.
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