Browns QB Brady Quinn (official thread)

[NOTREDAMECHIEF]

Comp % Yards TDs INTs Yards per Att

Quinn: 65.3% 1,621 13 3 8.5

Leinart 65.1% 1,286 10 2 10.2


wow! pretty darn close...

he is 1,600 yards away of becoming ND's all time passing yardage leader

[cincibuck]

Originally Posted by osubro

School profile: Dublin schools (Coffman, Scioto, Jerome)
2003 SAT score......1098 verbal/math cumulative average
2004 ACT score......586 students......23.7 cumulative average

School profile: Bishop Watterson
2004 SAT score......247 students.....1124 verbal/math cumulative average
2004 ACT score......215 students......24.5 cumulative average
[Students completing core] 138.......25.6 cumulative average

From such statistics, jimotis4heisman, it appears that Bishop Watterson is more than competitive with all three Dublin public schools. That goes for academic scholarships to OSU, Notre Dame, etc.

Apples and Oranges. You can't compare the two systems because the playing field isn't level. Having been a teacher and coach at Archbishop Moeller High School for 20 years, assigned there by Hamilton County Education Service Center, I would like to point out a few differences, crucial differences, that make your statistics irrelevant: 1. All private schools and parochial schools are free to operate under different rules than public schools. 2. Private and parochial schools retain the right to dismiss students. 3. Private and Parochial schools do NOT have to educate ALL students, regardless of abilities, behavior, standardized test scores.

In every national comparison I have read Private and Parochial schools do NO better than comparable public schools when the playing field is level in terms of socio-economic standards.

I loved my years at Moeller and I consider it an excellent school, but there were public schools that were every bit as good and serviced ALL who entered their doors.

[osubro]

Originally Posted by cincibuck

Apples and Oranges. You can't compare the two systems because the playing field isn't level. Having been a teacher and coach at Archbishop Moeller High School for 20 years, assigned there by Hamilton County Education Service Center, I would like to point out a few differences, crucial differences, that make your statistics irrelevant: 1. All private schools and parochial schools are free to operate under different rules than public schools. 2. Private and parochial schools retain the right to dismiss students. 3. Private and Parochial schools do NOT have to educate ALL students, regardless of abilities, behavior, standardized test scores.

In every national comparison I have read Private and Parochial schools do NO better than comparable public schools when the playing field is level in terms of socio-economic standards.

I loved my years at Moeller and I consider it an excellent school, but there were public schools that were every bit as good and serviced ALL who entered their doors.

Interesting....I spent 17 of my 30 years in Catholic education at La Salle. I coached, I taught, I moderated, I served, I cared...about every young man who "chose" to become a Lancer. There is certainly a difference, it seems, between someone choosing to be in a particular school or kind of school....and someone being assigned for whatever reason. The mission of any Catholic school goes far beyond academics and athletics.....It would be interesting to see how some of your colleagues at Moeller would respond to your perspective.

BTW, speaking of level playing fields.....Bishop Watterson's feeder parishes include North and Northwest Columbus, some areas not nearly as affluent as Dublin. I would also like to visit the school that claims to have "serviced ALL who entered" its doors. A remarkable claim that would be for any institution.

My doctoral research would not support your supposition about Catholic schools....but I studied an inner-city Catholic school serving Latino kids...not a suburban school in Montgomery like Moeller.

[strohs]

Originally Posted by cincibuck

Apples and Oranges. You can't compare the two systems because the playing field isn't level. Having been a teacher and coach at Archbishop Moeller High School for 20 years, assigned there by Hamilton County Education Service Center, I would like to point out a few differences, crucial differences, that make your statistics irrelevant: 1. All private schools and parochial schools are free to operate under different rules than public schools. 2. Private and parochial schools retain the right to dismiss students. 3. Private and Parochial schools do NOT have to educate ALL students, regardless of abilities, behavior, standardized test scores.

In every national comparison I have read Private and Parochial schools do NO better than comparable public schools when the playing field is level in terms of socio-economic standards.

I loved my years at Moeller and I consider it an excellent school, but there were public schools that were every bit as good and serviced ALL who entered their doors.

I would have to say that Dublin and Watterson are in the same "socio-economic" status group.
If he was comparing Centennial to Watterson, then you can say the economic levels are different, but not with Dublin.
Hell, probably almost 1/2 of Watterson is from Dublin....

[ArtilleryBuck]

Originally Posted by osubro

I spent 17 of my 30 years in Catholic education at La Salle. I coached, I taught, I moderated, I served, I cared...about every young man who "chose" to become a Lancer. There is certainly a difference, it seems, between someone choosing to be in a particular school or kind of school....and someone being assigned for whatever reason.

In your 30 years in Catholic education, did you ever consider the possibility that most HS students' educational paths are chosen by their parents....particularly when considering a private school? Kids are ultimately assigned their school via their parents in most cases IMO. I guess it is good that you felt that the kids you were educating were special (for whatever your reasoning...it is a great thing). But, I would hate for educators in the Public school system to conclude that their kids are simply issued items using similar reasoning. Kids deserve to be coached, taught, moderated, served, and cared for regardless of the school that they find themselves attending. Now, if you were to say that you coached, taught, moderated, served, and cared about every young man who's parents entrusted his development to my school...then I would think that would be more accurate. I had a lot of friends from my hometown who transferred to Notre Dame High School (Private Catholic, of course), but not one of them had a lot of say in the matter.

[scooter1369]

I had an ex that was placed in Father Lopez High School in Daytona Beach by her mother to keep her away from me. It didn't work.

She hated the school, hated the reason she was there, and hated her mother for doing it. She struggled in class due to the whole distraction of even being there. But man was she hot in that uniform.

She lasted one year, and then moved in with her dad in Rockville, Maryland where she graduated Magna cum Laude from Richard Montgomery High School and then went home to Stetson University in Florida.

Point being, not every kid benefits from the enviroment and academics of a parchial school due to the conditions that put them there.

[cincibuck]

For those outside of Cincinnati; Moeller, Elder and LaSalle are "Diocesan" schools, which means they are controlled (in a very loose sense of the word) by the Archbishop and are "open" schools in terms of enrollment. St X is a private school run by the Society of Jesuits and is subject to very little control by the Archbishop.

Again, I loved my years at Moeller and I am still in close contact with many of the faculty, but here are some things to consider: tuition at Moeller is over $7,000 per year, added to that is the cost of a laptop computer which can be paid upfront or amortized over the 4 years a student will be at Moeller. Those facts alone make the school completely different from the public schools.

In addition, the school receives state funds in the form of Auxiliary Services something on the order of $700 per student per year, funds for fire drills, tornado drills, attendance, grades, and other functions teachers perform along with transportation of our students to and from school by public school district busses. That's a huge chunk of state public education monies that show up in the "per student" costs of public schools, but are not reflected in the "per student" costs of Catholic schools.

Unlike Sycamore High School, just a mile or two up Montgomery Rd. from us, we could (and often did) dismiss students for their behavior. In some cases those same kids ended up at Purcell - Marian or McNicholas, but in most those kids usually ended up in the local public school. Their behavior and their academic problems became "public school problems."

I want to add that the school did not dismiss students lightly... you push a couple of $7 grand tuitions out the door and you have to start looking at your budget. You loose five kids and you're looking at a faculty position.

Still, if a kid smoked dope on campus, or got ugly with a teacher, he was gone and matriculating at Sycamore/Madeira/Reading/Indian Hills/Mason/Fairfield... you get the idea... the next day. That is a huge difference... especially to the faculty and their sense of control of the classroom.

There was a spiritual presence at Moeller. We could bring religious education into the academic mix and we could work freely with the Church's spiritual guidance programs to help students and families in ways which public schools cannot. Again an advantage over public schools.

My last year at Moeller was 99 - 2000. At that time we were not an open access school... and could not be required to be one... therefore we had no "challenged" students. We offered exactly NO vocational education programs and therefore did not have to serve vocational students. Kids had to take an entrance test and we openly encouraged kids with poor test scores and poor elementary school grades to look elsewhere. We did not have any LD teachers/tutors on staff and we did not honor any education support plans (which all public schools must serve). We did not have to honor unfunded mandates from the state for proficiency tests (though we did eventually take the tests), ESL programs, or provide support for challenged students nor did we have to "mainstream" students. Our AD funds supported exactly zero, zip, nada athletic programs for female students, Title IX? What Title IX? Hell, we didn't even have to deal with female students unless we chose to do so.

Now, despite all of those advantages we never surpassed Sycamore, Indian Hills, Walnut Hills, or Madeira in the number of Merit Scholars we turned out.

My point is not that Catholic education isn't worth the investment, but that a comparison of any two systems has to assume that both operate under similar conditions. They clearly do not.

[osubro]

Originally Posted by cincibuck

For those outside of Cincinnati; Moeller, Elder and LaSalle are "Diocesan" schools, which means they are controlled (in a very loose sense of the word) by the Archbishop and are "open" schools in terms of enrollment. St X is a private school run by the Society of Jesuits and is subject to very little control by the Archbishop.

Again, I loved my years at Moeller and I am still in close contact with many of the faculty, but here are some things to consider: tuition at Moeller is over $7,000 per year, added to that is the cost of a laptop computer which can be paid upfront or amortized over the 4 years a student will be at Moeller. Those facts alone make the school completely different from the public schools.

In addition, the school receives state funds in the form of Auxiliary Services something on the order of $700 per student per year, funds for fire drills, tornado drills, attendance, grades, and other functions teachers perform along with transportation of our students to and from school by public school district busses. That's a huge chunk of state public education monies that show up in the "per student" costs of public schools, but are not reflected in the "per student" costs of Catholic schools.

Unlike Sycamore High School, just a mile or two up Montgomery Rd. from us, we could (and often did) dismiss students for their behavior. In some cases those same kids ended up at Purcell - Marian or McNicholas, but in most those kids usually ended up in the local public school. Their behavior and their academic problems became "public school problems."

I want to add that the school did not dismiss students lightly... you push a couple of $7 grand tuitions out the door and you have to start looking at your budget. You loose five kids and you're looking at a faculty position.

Still, if a kid smoked dope on campus, or got ugly with a teacher, he was gone and matriculating at Sycamore/Madeira/Reading/Indian Hills/Mason/Fairfield... you get the idea... the next day. That is a huge difference... especially to the faculty and their sense of control of the classroom.

There was a spiritual presence at Moeller. We could bring religious education into the academic mix and we could work freely with the Church's spiritual guidance programs to help students and families in ways which public schools cannot. Again an advantage over public schools.

My last year at Moeller was 99 - 2000. At that time we were not an open access school... and could not be required to be one... therefore we had no "challenged" students. We offered exactly NO vocational education programs and therefore did not have to serve vocational students. Kids had to take an entrance test and we openly discouraged kids with poor test scores and poor elementary school grades to look elsewhere. We did not have any LD teachers/tutors on staff and we did not honor any education support plans (which all public schools must serve). We did not have to honor unfunded mandates from the state for proficiency tests (though we did eventually take the tests), ESL programs, or provide support for challenged students nor did we have to "mainstream" students. Our AD funds supported exactly zero, zip, nada athletic programs for female students, Title IX? What Title IX? Hell, we didn't even have to deal with female students unless we chose to do so.

Now, despite all of those advantages we never surpassed Sycamore, Indian Hills, Walnut Hills, or Madeira in the number of Merit Scholars we turned out.

My point is not that Catholic education isn't worth the investment, but that a comparison of any two systems has to assume that both operate under similar conditions. They clearly do not.

Cincibuck, I taught several National Merit Scholarship semifinalists/finalists at La Salle, but I always felt that the credit for their accomplishments lay with them...not with the school. Yes, teachers and academic programs assisted them in their efforts, but the achievement itself had more to do with individual ability, desire, determination, interest, etc. If it is true that schools "turn out" National Merit scholars, one might ask why, with all the advantages present in wealthy school districts like Sycamore and Indian Hills, there are not exceedingly long lists of yo