Discussion in 'Political Conversation and Debate' started by ScriptOhio, Jun 19, 2006.
Well... Have you? His continued assertion that we can't deport them is tantamount to supporting their continued existance in our country on an illegal basis.
JMO If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck......
BB - the point is that if you want a statement from Gator on that you should ask Gator. I know what he has written in support of rational immigration reform. I know what he has written about the practical impact of following the "throw all those brown people back to Mexico" dictates. As for a general position, I'm pretty sure that, as a lawyer, Gator is in favor of seeing existing Federal immigration law upheld - and when that law is lacking in addressing the issue that such law be improved or amended.
I take that for granted, nothing Gator has said contradicts the position I grant him on the basis of his professional status.
I was asking Gator.
So I talked to one of my buddies who is a Mesa, AZ cop and he is thrilled with the new law. He said ever since Sheriff Joe started doing his immigration sweeps in Mesa, that crime has went way down in those areas.
He also said that cops aren't going to randomly pull over Mexicans and ask for identification. He said they are going to do their normal job, but if people can't produce identification, they get booked just like anybody would (even white people), but now the illegals will get jail time and then handed over to ICE (basically get deported).
So he doesn't foresee racial profiling as being an issue because they're not going to go about their business any differently.
Then why even have the provision in the bill (now law) that requires cops to make a reasonable effort to verify the status of anyone whom they reasonably suspect is an illegal immigrant? I'm telling you man, that provision is unconstitutional, is going to be challenged, and is going to cost your state a fair amount of legal resources in a time government can hardly afford such costs. I could be wrong, but I'll be shocked if I am. I also fully suspect that your governor's legal advisors have already informed her of the likelihood that (1) this thing will be challenged in court and (2) the State of Arizona will lose. Which really calls into question her leadership, IMO. I can't help but notice that something like 70% of your state's citizens support the law, and what it would have meant to her politically had she vetoed it.
Federal laws, and not the Arizona one? Sure. Laws are good things.
Nah. Can't agree with the "all". That would be - like - really stupid.
But it does make for a really cool thing to chant when the mouth breathers get together with their torches and walk toward the windmill...
Ducks don't really do "nuanced" well. They sort of eat and swim and poop and fly around. Not so much mastering the analysis of complex political issues with significant societal and economic ramifications.
Oh. Quack. They do quack too.
Um....never said that.
I also never said that cheese making one's poop hard makes them legal. Wanna make a list of all the things I did not say?
Easily? Oh. Kay. How?
I can only speak to the things you make up that I said, you'll have to ask him about the things you make up that he said.
Since you are obviously in the "put them in relocation camps and make lamp shades from their skin" camp, is their some limit to the torture you would have fall upon the heads of the wetback al quida? What? We aren't just supposed to make [Mark May] up about the other guy's position? It is so much easier arguing on the ESPN poli boards...
Yes. That is a very important question. We need to see that we [Mark May] can the criminal ( aside from illegal status alone) element and send them home ASAP. We need to have a quicker way to decide what to do with them - have them do time here, where they will do time, or ship them home where they may get out the next week. We need to work at figuring out what skills we need here, and let those folks stay and work toward citizenship, and we need to find a way to let some agricultural labor enter and work, and make sure that their wages are taxed and the money stay in our system and not be totally sent out of the country. We need to amend our laws to make the children of illegal aliens not citizens - so that the benefit of crossing and dropping kids to gain citizenship is removed.
But no matter how much you do not like it, and no matter how "easy" you think it will be to replace them, you are living in a fantasy world if you think that they "all" can be shipped home and no problems result. Working in the heat and pesticides to harvest crops by hand is a job that the kids and moms and dads in your hood will not do, nor will the unemployed in urban areas. So get ready to pay for lettuce like it is Kobi beef it you throw them all out.
I don't know why the bill was written that way, but you're right that it gives the cops the ability to question someone's status if they look illegal. Sounds like a lot of grey area, but that's the way it was written.
I understand that we need cheap labor and that these Mexicans do jobs most Americans don't want to do, but there are also a lot of illegals who do nothing but cause trouble and abuse the system.
The best thing would be if the federal government came up with a plan to fix the problem, but neither party (up to this point) wants to lose the Mexican votes so neither party does anything. Obama got something like 70% of the Mexican vote, so he's not going to want to piss them off before 2012 (unless he offers amnesty as a resolution to the problem). Arizona's best hope will probably be if a Republican president gets elected in 2012 and the new president does something about it. If Republicans are only getting 30% of the Mexican vote, they won't be as scared to act because the repercussions of losing 30% of the vote compared to 70% of the vote aren't as daunting.
Even if the law is repealed and deemed unconstitutional, I think it sent a message to Washington and future Presidents that something needs to be done ASAP or other bills will be passed by states to try and stop illegal immigration that might be deemed constitutional. I think a majority of democratic voters in AZ wanted this bill passed, so this is a topic that goes beyond parties.
It would force the companies to pay higher wages thus getting the welfare trash off of their asses to actually work.
I'd be willing to pay a higher price for goods if it meant illegals would be taken off our hands.
I have no problem with this legislation. We don't live in Arizona with this problem. Arizona is tired of the grandstanding by the Feds. saying they're going to do something about it.
For once a state that actually tries to solve it own problems and not wait for daddy to fix it.
What a novel idea.
I hear you Thump, but there are no studies by any reputable economist (that I am aware of anyway) that support your "I disagree". Hell, if there were no economic consequences to shipping every illegal alien home, then there would be a bill saying that passed years ago.
One of the big problems is that the illegal immigrants are paying taxes to the Federal government, yet the taxes paid to local and state governments do not compensate the states and cities for the services used by illegals. OTOH, many illegals pay federal taxes, and wind up paying for services that they do not use for fear of discovery of their illegal status. And, certain industries like agriculture require large numbers of employees willing to work for low wages in poor working conditions. The illegals fit that bill. Your answer, let the "welfare trash" do the work does not answer the how we get people without transportation of housing to move from where they live to the various localities where the migrant laborers work ( they move a bunch, see the fact they are called "migrants"), house them, see to it that their kids are watched or in school, let alone account for the many actually disabled people that get federal support due to their physical disabilities. Having these people work in the sun for 12 hours picking veggies or fruit is not a plan.
We need to find a way to allow illegals to work here, to account for their actions while here, to make sure that they are taxed, and that their money is not only collected by the feds, but that the fed pays its fair share to the states and cities for the financial burden of illegals using local facilities, be it health, police, etc, all to the benefit of the feds.
SSRN-Taxing Undocumented Immigrants: Separate, Unequal and Without Representation by Francine Lipman
Gator, can you get that law going so Arizona can repeal SB1070 and San Francisco can stop boycotting my state!!! Touchers.
While I admit I think the bill is a dead bang loser and a waste of taxpayer money, it is at least an attempt to get the feds' attention on this issue.
Interesting to me, next door is New Mexico, a state made up of the old Spanish/Mexican capital of Santa Fe and environs, a state that was made up of originally Spanish speakers, and the oldest state capital (at least ten years before the Pilgrims set down and started stealing Indian corn, Santa Fe was a settled town.) The NM Constitution was written in both Spanish and English, and the state is bi-lingual in that all laws and state services are made available in both languages. I doubt that NM is enamored of Arizona's new law. But then - it should not shock them - as Zona has called English its "Official Language" since all the way back to ..........2006.
I guess after the banking regulation fiasco, immigration is the next great political football to be filibustered. :p
Most "illegals" are paid in cash, hence why they can be paid below minimum wage.
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