Academics, Graduation Rates, etc

[CookyPuss]

Dispatch

COLLEGE FOOTBALL GRADUATION RATES
Study gives OSU low mark in players getting degrees
Thursday, December 14, 2006
Ken Gordon
THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH

It reported that graduation rates of all 119 Division I-A football teams were 62 percent for white players, 49 percent for blacks.
Those numbers both beat the overall student-body graduation rates of 60 percent for whites and 36 percent for blacks.

Right there, that tells you something about expectations. Why do people expect football players to graduate at a higher rate than the overall student-body??? Are football players somehow smarter?? I happen to agree that the racial gap is a problem and should be addressed by univerisities. However, this appears to be an issue for the academic environment and not football programs.

Also, I think this study was conducted when some of our stellar student athletes were at tOSU like Reggie Germany and his Bluto Blutarsky GPA. I'd like to see the rates now that Tressel has had 6 years with his recruits.

 

[BuckeyeSoldier]

But if the rates do go up dramatically with tressel in charge doesnt that just PROVE that he is cheater McSweatervest? :tongue2:

 

[OSU_Buckguy]

there was an interesting interview on 1460 shortly ago. ricordati and spiels talked to dr. bruno, a psychology professor at ohio state. among the topics discussed that related to the recent graduation rate findings, the professor mentioned that prior to tressel's hiring, the football program averaged 10 scholar athletes (gpa at 3.0 or greater) per year. for the past three years, the number of scholar athletes has been 42, 44, and 46. moreover, the professor stated that about 35-40% of these scholar athletes have been black.

 

[Okinawa's#1Buck]

there was an interesting interview on 1460 shortly ago. ricordati and spiels talked to dr. bruno, a psychology professor at ohio state. among the topics discussed that related to the recent graduation rate findings, the professor mentioned that prior to tressel's hiring, the football program averaged 10 scholar athletes (gpa at 3.0 or greater) per year. for the past three years, the number of scholar athletes has been 42, 44, and 46. moreover, the professor stated that about 35-40% of these scholar athletes have been black.

Good retort. I guess it just takes time for these averages to level out.

In the end, JT's reign will be seen as a complete success. On the field is obvious, the off the field stuff has slowed to almost nil. Outside of Mo C's failure, there was only the TS cash thing and he obviously made that into another success story. Screw Adande, he didn't bother to look at the program or even the school as a whole and see its tremendous growth over the last 5 years.

 

[Oh8ch]

Why do people expect football players to graduate at a higher rate than the overall student-body???

They shouldn't. But a more apt comparison would be football players to other students on full scholarship.

 

[Onebuckfan]

Black white athlete or not, the number one factor is "want to", if the student is not interested in graduating no program will help him. The hidden thing behind all these stories is they are accusing tOSU of exploiting black athletes. The TS story should put that all to rest, JT the University, and his teamates stuck with Troy when he had problems and issues that could've led to his dismissal. JT from the beginning could have stuck with his 5 star recruit and let TS go by the wayside. Instead JT and Joe Daniels let Troy grow and learn from his mistakes and helped him become the best player and man he could be. If this doesn't quiet the detractors nothing will.

 

[Steve19]

there was an interesting interview on 1460 shortly ago. ricordati and spiels talked to dr. bruno, a psychology professor at ohio state. among the topics discussed that related to the recent graduation rate findings, the professor mentioned that prior to tressel's hiring, the football program averaged 10 scholar athletes (gpa at 3.0 or greater) per year. for the past three years, the number of scholar athletes has been 42, 44, and 46. moreover, the professor stated that about 35-40% of these scholar athletes have been black.

That only means if black athletes are 70% or so of the team, then their representation in this group is only about half of what it should be, right? Can't wait to see a Pulitizer Prize prospect like Mike Freeman get his hands on this sterling statistic.

Let's be very frank. Take our students in the football program. Analyse their graduation rates versus the general student population controlling for ethnicity (as a measure of exposure to professional employment in the household and other discriminatory factors), household income, parental education and occupation, and ACT scores at entry and then tell me how the football players are doing.

I'll tell you without looking from my experience as a professor at Fisher College of Business a few years ago. They are doing very well indeed!

 

[sandgk]

But if the rates do go up dramatically with tressel in charge doesnt that just PROVE that he is cheater McSweatervest? :tongue2:

Let's not give any of fans of teams with a sense of academic snobbery over Ohio State any pretzel logic that can be misconstrued, turned around, re-twisted and used against the Buckeyes :tongue2:

 

[Oh8ch]

Black white athlete or not, the number one factor is "want to", if the student is not interested in graduating no program will help him.

I heard a bit of Spielman trying to make that case today and I disagree. Of course JT can't make these kids want to graduate if they don't want to. But the point of the NCAA focus on graduation rates as I interpret it is recruiting. The NCAA wants schools to recruit kids who have an interest in academics. I couldn't agree more. For every Reggie Germany there is another kid - black or white - a half step slower but wanting to get that degree. The NCAA is trying to force coaches to make that compromise. More power to them.

 

[CookyPuss]

They shouldn't. But a more apt comparison would be football players to other students on full scholarship.

Don't get me started on that one. I went to a D-II school that gave out 11 full ride scholarships (tuition + room & board) to football players. Guess how many full tuition scholarships were available to the general student body? 4! And we are talking about a lousy D-II football program at that. I don't know what the scholarship availabilty is like at other schools, but I wouldn't be surprised to see similar ratios. It boogles my mind to know the amount of money that is wasted on athletes who are in school for the primary purpose of playing on a sports team (a large chunk of whom do not graduate), while the future teachers and social service professionals enter the workforce strapped with debt after 4 years of school. So, yeah, give me a study comparing those on full tuition football scholarships to education majors on full tuition scholarships. Which group do you think is making better use of their educational opportunity?

 

[DaddyBigBucks]

Don't get me started on that one. I went to a D-II school that gave out 11 full ride scholarships (tuition + room & board) to football players. Guess how many full tuition scholarships were available to the general student body? 4! And we are talking about a lousy D-II football program at that. I don't know what the scholarship availabilty is like at other schools, but I wouldn't be surprised to see similar ratios. It boogles my mind to know the amount of money that is wasted on athletes who are in school for the primary purpose of playing on a sports team (a large chunk of whom do not graduate), while the future teachers and social service professionals enter the workforce strapped with debt after 4 years of school. So, yeah, give me a study comparing those on full tuition football scholarships to education majors on full tuition scholarships. Which group do you think is making better use of their educational opportunity?

Let me get this straight...

Since this is an OSU board, let's use OSU as an example.

On one hand we have a program that produces tens of millions of dollars of profit for the school AFTER paying for the scholarships of the people without whom there would be no profit, let alone the gross revenue that pays for their scholarships. Much of that profit goes back into the school.


On the other hand we have a bunch of people that are making there own way in the world. To give them scholarships, you'd have to do what? Raise taxes?

So you want to take money away from me, after I've already paid for my own education; and have me fund the education of someone I've never met. And if I refuse to pay, I go to prison at the point of a gun like Al Capone.


Honestly, do you really think that taxing people to give out scholarships is morally superior to having scholarships go to people whose work to earn the scholarship more than pays for said scholarship?????

Or do you think that if we took the scholarship money from football players that the football program would somehow still produce millions of dollars? Do you believe in magic?

Just because someone does something, like teaching, that has a moral value beyond that of playing football; don't think for a minute that this means we can suspend the laws of economics. The "nobility" of a profession has nothing whatever to do with the amount of revenue it generates. When we start assigning economic rewards based on nobility rather than for economic value; we not only destroy marketplace in ways that you would need an economics lesson to comprehend, but we also place a higher social value on economics than on nobility. We would be admitting that money is more important than doing something good because it is good.


If we, as individuals, choose to value the people who have made noble choices; if we choose to share our wealth with them, we can make the world a better place. Trying to implement a system that produces this by fiat has been the scourge of humanity for over 100 years now. It is immoral and a demonstrated failure in every form in which it has ever been tried.

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Back on topic...

At a place like OSU that produces far more than its share of NFL players, graduation rates will never match the rates for places like Stanford. But OSU is preparing the players for their chosen profession just as well as Stanford Law prepares pond scum to be lawyers.

 

[sandgk]

DDB - I know that when you say the program makes a profit you are focussed on the football program. It is also worth looking at the budget for the Athletic Department as a whole, which makes a rather moderate amount of black ink. It does send back to the general fund of the University a fee of a few million dollars. (Said monies representing their use rate for general facilities, so that is nota profit). So, in truth not a great deal of profit goes back into the school, it goes back into the remaining perfectly useful and honorable activities of the Athletics Department.
Oh, yes, biggest line items in the Athletic Department Budget:
Servicing the debt for facilities development (once that is paid down we have roughly 20 Million extra per annum going into the coffers at tOSU);
Staff and Coaches salaries, and;
The cost of ALL those scholarships - whether it be for football or those of the far more numerous additional student athletes on campus.

Now, without the football program, none of this would be possible.
(And, compare the Ohio State exercise in fiscal sanity to that in other D-1A schools, like, say Miami of Florida - which loses money year in and year out).

 

[Oh8ch]

At a place like OSU that produces far more than its share of NFL players, graduation rates will never match the rates for places like Stanford. But OSU is preparing the players for their chosen profession just as well as Stanford Law prepares pond scum to be lawyers.

And this is the crux of the issue. Do we remove the facade and say that for many kids CFB is just a training program for the NFL, thus making OSU at best a technical school rather than a University for these athletes?

You don't get a degree in veterinary medicine at OSU by spending a year or two or six treating animals until you can do it on your own, or until some veterinary practice offers you a huge bonus to come work for them. You take a core curriculum. You take math and science and English and humanities and a variety of courses that give you at the end of the day what Universities are intended to provide - a balanced education. You are more than a veterinarian - you are an educated person.

The "football is their chosen profession" argument misses completely the fact that there is no degree in football at OSU or any other University. And if there were you would need to take science, math, English, etc. to get that degree.

There is a distinction between the football player who leaves OSU with a degree and one who does not and it is an important one. And I applaud the NCAA for focusing on that distinction.

As for the 290 pound kid who runs the 40 in 4.4 and is only interested in going to college to get to the NFL - screw him. Weed 'em out. Don't let 'em in the door.

 

[Muck]

As for the 290 pound kid who runs the 40 in 4.4 and is only interested in going to college to get to the NFL - screw him. Weed 'em out. Don't let 'em in the door.

Under the current system that just isn't realistic, you can't do that as their only viable option to get to the NFL IS to go through the college ranks.


Would you prefer that football have a farm system like MLB's?

 

[PrincetonBuckeye]

Under the current system that just isn't realistic, you can't do that as their only viable option to get to the NFL IS to go through the college ranks.


Would you prefer that football have a farm system like MLB's?

for majority (and I do mean majority) but I know that there were a few players in the NFL just recently that did not go to college.....I for the life of me can't remember their names.....if some out there does by all means help me out...