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Best Big Game Pitchers of This Era

Discussion in 'Professional Baseball' started by Sloopy45, Oct 11, 2004.

  1. Sloopy45

    Sloopy45 Pimp Minister Sinister

    this is not counting the stats from this postseason to this point

    1. Mariano Rivera: 7-1 in the post-season with a 0.73 ERA, 30 Saves, 77 K's in 60 Innings, and 4 rings. Doesn't get any better than the Sandman. His teams are 16-5 in Postseason Series.

    2. John Smoltz: 13-4, 2.77 ERA, and 4 saves in October. The Braves only won one World Series, but it ain't because of Smoltz. In 1996 (his Cy Young Season) he was 4-1 in October with a 1.00, 1.20. and 0.64 ERA in the DCS, LCS, and WS. Quite Impressive. His teams are 12-10 in the Postseason.

    3. Curt Schilling: 5-1, 1.66 ERA, and 91 K's in 86.7 post-season Innings. The Unit was better in '01, but Schilling's numbers are better overall. He hasn't had as big a body of work in October as Johnson, however. His teams are 4-2 in post-season Series.

    4. Randy Johnson: 7-8, 3 Complete Games, 2 relief appearences, 3.08 ERA, and 124 K's in 108 Innings. His numbers aren't great, and his teams are only 4-5 in Postseason Series. However, he's this high on my list because of his '95 and '01 Playoff performances. In '01, he was 5-1 in the postseason with a 1.12 ERA in the LCS and a 1.08 ERA in the World Series, leading the D-Backs to the Championship. There's probably no starter I want on the mound in a big game ahead of the Unit.

    5. David Wells: The Boomer is 10-3 with an 3.18 ERA in the post-season. Great big game pitcher. His teams are 8-7 in October.

    6. Orlando "El Duque" Hernandez: 9-3 with an 2.51 ERA in October. His teams are 10-2. The best Cuban import since the Cohiba Robusto cigar.

    7. David Cone: 8-3 in the post-season with a 3.80 ERA. He's been to the post-season with three teams (Mets, Toronto, & the Yankees) and his teams are 12-3. The consummate winner.

    Anyone have another guy to go on this list?
     
  2. DiHard

    DiHard Guest

    black jack morris:

    stats:
    1984 ALCS DET KCR W 1 1 1.29 1-0 0 0 0 7.0 5 1 1 4
    WS DET SDP W 2 2 2.00 2-0 0 2 0 18.0 13 4 3 13
    1987 ALCS DET MIN L 1 1 6.75 0-1 0 1 0 8.0 6 6 3 7
    1991 ALCS MIN TOR W 2 2 4.05 2-0 0 0 0 13.3 17 6 1 7
    WS MIN ATL W 3 3 1.17 2-0 0 1 1 23.0 18 3 9 15

    7-1 record...4 cg's in 9 starts....
    in the world series he was...
    4-0...3 cg's in 5 starts....1.40 era
     
  3. BuckeyeNation27

    BuckeyeNation27 Goal Goal USA! Staff Member

    as with the other closer on the list....he only pitches 1-2 innings....3 if there is desperation in the bronx. i agree he is one of the best closers of this HR era (possibly ever)...but he comes in to throw 9 pitches...not 90.
     
  4. AKAK

    AKAK If you hear the siren its already too late Staff Member

    Orel Hershiser is 8-3- 2.59 in 12 post season Series... only 3-3 in the WS though. (Which makes him 5-0 otherwise).

    Maybe not "great" but every bit of David Wells IMO.
     
  5. backhomeinohio

    backhomeinohio heavenissaturdayintheshoe

    I agree with BN27. I am a Yankee fan and although Rivera is the cream of the crop when it comes to money relievers. If you don't get him the lead or a tie in the 8th or 9th he is just going to ride the pine
     
  6. DiHard

    DiHard Guest

    bob gibson:

    Postseason Pitching

    Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W-L SV CG SHO IP H ER BB SO
    +------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
    1964 WS STL NYY W 3 3 3.00 2-1 0 2 0 27.0 23 9 8 31
    1967 WS STL BOS W 3 3 1.00 3-0 0 3 1 27.0 14 3 5 26
    1968 WS STL DET L 3 3 1.67 2-1 0 3 1 27.0 18 5 4 35
    +------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
    3 World Series 2-1 9 9 1.89 7-2 0 8 2 81.0 55 17 17 92


    eight complete games in 9 starts...7-2 1.89....you kidding me...

    he only got one chance in the postseason....but these stats make rivera look like a rookie....
    rob dibble..

    Postseason Pitching

    Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W-L SV CG SHO IP H ER BB SO
    +------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
    1990 NLCS CIN PIT W 4 0 0.00 0-0 1 0 0 5.0 0 0 1 10
    WS CIN OAK W 3 0 0.00 1-0 0 0 0 4.7 3 0 1 4
    +------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
    2 Postseason Ser 2-0 7 0 0.00 1-0 1 0 0 9.7 3 0 2 14
     
  7. Sloopy45

    Sloopy45 Pimp Minister Sinister

    AKAK: "Orel Hershiser is 8-3- 2.59 in 12 post season Series... only 3-3 in the WS though. (Which makes him 5-0 otherwise)."

    Here's why Hershiser didn't crack my list: he pitched the one of the best, if not THE best Series I've ever seen in the '88 LCS, but his whole body of work isn't as good as the other guys. His great lifetime post-season numbers are basically buoyed by that outstanding '88 Playoff Run. In all his other Series, he was good, but not great. He was only truly great in one post-season.

    '88 NLCS vs. Mets: 3 starts, 1 relief appearance, 1-0, 1.09 ERA, 1 Save, 1 Complete Game, 1 Shutout, 24.7 IP, 18 H, and 3 ER. Now THAT is a horse pulling the whole wagon.

    "Maybe not "great" but every bit of David Wells IMO."

    I'd still take the Boomer. Its just a safer pick, and he's been more consistent. If you give me the Hershiser of '88, then we have a different story.

    backhomeinohio: "If you don't get him the lead or a tie in the 8th or 9th he is just going to ride the pine"

    ? - I don't get this rationale at all. First off, a starter is going to impact two, maybe three (at most) games in a Series. Rivera is in a key role in four to five games of every Series. I don't care if he's in to pitch the last Inning or two. Those Innings are the most pressure packed Innings of the game. Go ask an Indian fan about that (disclaimer: not trying to poke fun, Tribe fans, just trying to prove my point. Your angry rebuttal to me is not needed).
     
  8. OilerBuck

    OilerBuck Sweet Crude

    Yet you placed Randy Johnson on your list based on a single postseason and an otherwise TERRIBLE postseason record?

    Not arguing that Johnson doesn't deserve to be on the list...just saying we need consistency...

    ...also fewer Yankees.
     
  9. DiHard

    DiHard Guest

    there is no way a yankee fan would ever let a dodger or red sox on this team......

    thats like a buckeye letting a scummer on his team...

    and...by the way....the greatest player to ever live...PERIOD....wasnt to bad either...

    babe ruth:

    Postseason Pitching

    Year Round Tm Opp WLser G GS ERA W-L SV CG SHO IP H ER BB SO
    +------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
    1916 WS BOS BRO W 1 1 0.64 1-0 0 1 0 14.0 6 1 3 4
    1918 WS BOS CHC W 2 2 1.06 2-0 0 1 1 17.0 13 2 7 4
    +------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
    2 World Series 2-0 3 3 0.87 3-0 0 2 1 31.0 19 3 10 8

    3-0...0.87 era....

    no question the greatest player of all-time.......
     
  10. OilerBuck

    OilerBuck Sweet Crude

    When you put it that way, I can't really bash Sloop for leaving Orel off the list. Even if I do hate the Yanks, I can't imagine putting a scummer on any list that I wouldn't immediately use to wipe my crack with.

    Other than a slight hint of shading from pinstripe-colored glasses, this was a well thought out and pretty good list. Definately inspired some thought. :biggrin2:
     
  11. DiHard

    DiHard Guest

    all of sloops top ten baseball lists have at least seven yankees on them....and none from before 1995......they are going to have to build a new wing in the hall of fame to hold all these 1995-present yankees.....
     
  12. Sloopy45

    Sloopy45 Pimp Minister Sinister

    OilerBuck: "Yet you placed Randy Johnson on your list based on a single postseason and an otherwise TERRIBLE postseason record?"

    Olier, Randy Johnson (who, unless memory serves me very incorrect, was never a Yankee) was a super-dominant pitcher in two postseasons, not one. In the '95 DCS, Johnson singelhandedly pitched Seattle into the LCS against the Indians:

    1 start, 1 relief appearance, 2.70 ERA, 2-0, with 16 K's in 10 Innings. And, oh yeah, he also dominated the extra Playoff game against California that season to get into the Playoffs. Seattle wasn't able to set the rotation for the Yankees in Game 1 (he still dominated), or the Indians in Game 1 of the LCS. He had a 2.35 ERA in the LCS against the '95 Indians, who were one of the best offensive clubs of all time.

    And his losing post-season record is because he's 0-3 combined in two Series with Seattle and Houston, and his ERA was 2.35 and 1.93, respectively, in those Series. His record is a result of his team being bad, not because he wasn't dominant.

    Case closed. He's better than Orel. Its unfathomable to me that I get grilled for saying Randy Johnson (again, not a Yankee) id better than Hershisher. You've GOT to be an Indians fan.

    Di: "there is no way a yankee fan would ever let a dodger or red sox on this team......"

    I have no axe to grind with the Dodgers. A Yankee fan hates two teams: the Mets and the Red Sox. Behind that (& at a much lower level), you go with AL rivals: Baltimore, Cleveland, Seattle, etc. L.A. isn't on the radar screen. And let me put it to you this way: I LOVE Hershiser and the '88 Dodgers because they majorly upset my hated Mets, who would've cruised to another painful title if not for the Bulldog.

    And I like the Gibson posting. Probably the best big gamer ever. What about the "Big Train" Walter Johnson, Tom Seaver, or Sandy Koufax? Those were three all timers.

    Oiler: "Other than a slight hint of shading from pinstripe-colored glasses, this was a well thought out and pretty good list. Definately inspired some thought."

    Olier, I'm not biased. Well, I am, but I tried to be objective when putting my list together. All of these pitchers on my list are based on people that I've seen up close, in a big-spot: in other words, Yankees who pitched big games, pitchers who pitched big games against the Yankees, or others that I may have glimpsed here and there. If you notice, all of the 3 non-Yanks on my list dominated the Yanks in the post-season. Its not bias, I went with what I've seen.

    That's why Jack Morris (who Di brought up and would probably be anywhere from # 2 to # 5 on that list if I revisited it), didn't come to mind when I was writing it up. Other than many, many regular season games against the Yanks over the years, they never crossed paths in the Playoffs, and hence, he never came to mind. Another one I'd put on that list that I completely forgot about is Dave Stewart.
     
  13. AKAK

    AKAK If you hear the siren its already too late Staff Member

    Whoops-- that was a good whiff.
     
  14. OilerBuck

    OilerBuck Sweet Crude

    There are a couple of points I need to make on this post. First and foremost I am NOT an Indians fan. I am actually a Reds fan and despise the Indians (Although not as much as the Yankmes).

    First of all, as far as I am concerned W-L is the ultimate stat defining a pitcher. When discussing postseason pitching, if you don't win you go home...there is no consolidation prize for most strikeouts or lowest ERA without winning. For this conversation I will consider every stat, but will be giving more weight to wins and losses because I'd rather have a 10-2 guy with a 3.5 era on the mound than an 8-9 guy with a 2.5 era.

    In the specific Orel vs Randy debate, I think the bulldog dominates the stats as well as the wins and losses.

    Orel - 8 Wins 3 Losses, 18 games started, 4 complete games, 2 shutouts
    4 relief appear., 1 save, 396 total outs
    Randy - 7 Wins 8 Losses, 14 games started, 3 complete games, 2 shutouts
    2 relief appear., 0 saves, 324 total outs

    Hershiser has given up only one earned run (38) more than Johnson (37) despite the additional 72 outs giving him an ERA advantage (2.59 vs. 3.08). Also, Orel has allowed only 8 home runs as opposed to Randy's 13. You point to Johnson's 2.70 World Series ERA as a major deciding factor in him being a better pitcher, yet that number would actually RAISE the Bulldogs Career postseason ERA. You also have to consider that this number would be significantly lower if he had not been tatooed for 18 runs and a 5.72 ERA in '97...the twilight of his career.

    In the '88 postseason that you claim is Hershiser's only claim to crack this list, Orel was 3-0 and allowed 5 earned runs in 5 starts. Then after a 7 year hiatus from the postseason, in '95 he went 4-1 and duplicated 5 earned runs in 5 starts and allowed 5 FEWER hits (20) than in '88 (25). If you are going to take away Bulldog's best two years, take away Johnson's and see if he has any legs to stand on.

    Looking at the year by year stats, these pitchers are eerily similar in a lot of areas. Like I said...in the postseason, when only wins and losses matter...you have to consider that Hersheiser almost never left a game with his team behind.

    Randy is a great pitcher...but to have him at #4 and have Orel Hersheiser off of the top 10 presents some MAJOR inconsistencies.

    With that said...I don't mind Rivera at #1. 288 put outs is enough to put him in the top 20 list of Innings (all time). His stats are sick and he's been straight consistent. I admit it's tough to have him over starters...but there is NO ONE I'd rather have in the game in the bottom of the 9th with a 1 run cushion.
     
  15. DiHard

    DiHard Guest

    sloops just having fun with you....i have to admit that i love these baseball threads you have being starting.....good stuff...
     

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