Best Year in Baseball History?

[BB73]

I was impressed by the .406 by Williams in 1941.

I'm not nearly as impressed by the 56-game hitting streak. In the middle of it, JoeD had an 0-fer and the streak was going to end around 30. The Yanks tied the game, and he got his hit in extra innings. If the Yanks would have won or lost the game in 9 innings, the streak ended.

Without that luck, he's got two 25 or 30 game streaks almost back-to-back, and nobody would be drooling over it for the last 63 years.

JoeD is one of the most overrated athletes in history. Because he played in NY and married Marilyn Monroe, he was idolized. Stan Musial was as good a ball player, and got 1/10 of the recognition.

 

[Sloopy45]

You see, I try to be nice and someone always says something ridiculous to foul the whole thing up! Lets tackle this one:

BuckeyeBill73: "In the middle of it, JoeD had an 0-fer and the streak was going to end around 30. The Yanks tied the game, and he got his hit in extra innings."

This is the most ludicrous point I've ever heard. Luck comes into everything and every record!! You think Williams didn't have his share of bloop hits in 1941? Outrageous. The fact that you think a 56 game hitting streak is overrated because DiMag had an 0fer going into Extra Innings is beyond me.

"JoeD is one of the most overrated athletes in history. Because he played in NY and married Marilyn Monroe, he was idolized. Stan Musial was as good a ball player, and got 1/10 of the recognition."

First off, in the 30's and 40's, there were no "Games of the Week," or espn.com, or Cable TV. People around the country got to know players by listening to the World Series & the All-Star Game on radio. The Yankee Clipper was the superstar in 10 World Series for the most storied franchise. Musial, by comparison, played in 4. That should give you a clue as to why DiMag is more famous.

Secondly, the Musial-DiMaggio comparison makes no sense. Not only did they not play the same position, the same league, or even in the same era (DiMag played from '36 to '51, Stan the Man from '41 to '63), or from the same side of the plate.

Thridly, DiMaggio is overrated?? What makes him overrated? The 3 MVPs? The 2 Batting Titles? Or maybe because he was a 13 time All-Star? The .325 lifetime batting average maybe?? Or maybe because he has eight (yes, EIGHT!) more lifetime Strikeouts than lifetime Home Runs (369 vs. 361)??

And oh yeah, DiMaggio also lost three years of his prime at ages 28, 29, & 30 serving in World War II. So all this is thrown out the window because he took an 0fer into Extra Innings, huh?

 

[AKAK]

Well... see now w'eve touched on the 'magic' surrounding 56.

It may be at the same time the greatest single season accomplishment and the biggest freak ocurrence ever... So what if the guy took one to extra innings... they could have walked him in every at bat to end it... And supposedly there were a few 'errors' that became hits alond the way... But anyhow... he needed one hit and got it... Dude also had a 61 game streak in the minors... The guy could hit in the clutch.

Having said all that Joe D was an insufferable cocksucker and I 'm glad it was the Tribe that ended the streak so Joe could go sell Mr Coffee's... and yes... his legend has "Yankee Shine" on it... but that's the reality... Yankees get more attention than anyone else... You need to look no further than Reggie Jackson and Dave Winfield to see "overrated."

 

[Sloopy45]

AKAK: "his legend has "Yankee Shine" on it... but that's the reality... Yankees get more attention than anyone else... You need to look no further than Reggie Jackson and Dave Winfield to see "overrated."

I don't get this comment at all. 'Overrated?' Are Jackson & Winfield first ballot HOF'ers? Yes, no question. How this has anything to do with "Yankee Shine" is beyond me. Nobody made them into demigods, they're 2 of the greatest players in baseball history. 500 HRs (Reggie) & 3,000 hits (Diamond Dave) put their names in the pantheon, not "Yankee Shine."

And secondly, this is the best stat for Joe D: when he got to the Yankees in 1936, there was no single "greatest franchise" in baseball: the Yankees had 4 Championships, the Red Sox had five, the Philadelphia A's had five, the New York Giants had 4, the Cardinals had three, etc.

But after JoeD came to the Yankees, they won ten championsips from 1936 to 1951, put some space between the Yankees and the rest of baseball, and he propelled the francise to the status it holds today.

He was the first "five tool" baseball player in history, and one of the greatest defensive Centerfielders of all time. I don't know how anyone with all this on his resume is "overrated" or needs "Yankee Shine." He doesn't need anyone to polish him up, he's the one who shines the shoes.

 

[AKAK]

He doesn't need anyone to polish him up, he's the one who shines the shoes.

Maybe Ted Williams Shoes.

 

[Sloopy45]

AKAK: "Maybe Ted Williams Shoes."

He was a better all-around player than Williams. Not as good a hitter (Williams is Top 5 or Top 7 in baseball history), but a better player.

 

[AKAK]

I don't get this comment at all. 'Overrated?' Are Jackson & Winfield first ballot HOF'ers? Yes, no question. How this has anything to do with "Yankee Shine" is beyond me. Nobody made them into demigods, they're 2 of the greatest players in baseball history. 500 HRs (Reggie) & 3,000 hits (Diamond Dave) put their names in the pantheon, not "Yankee Shine."

Both "Lifetime Achievement Awards" What did Reggie hit for his career? .260? Probably averaged 150 K's?

Winfield... Okay... he has 3000 hits... Pretty good... for 23 seasons... not eye popping...

I'd say they were two of the most long lived players in Major league history....

Edit- Sorry I was trying to add this last comment to the Ted Williams thing.. my damn boss interrupted me...


Anyway... Dimaggio wasn't the first 5 tool player... He wasn't even the first 5 tool player named Joe.

 

[Sloopy45]

AKAK: "Both "Lifetime Achievement Awards" What did Reggie hit for his career? .260? Probably averaged 150 K's?"

I can give you Winfield. Although Dave was an All-Star throughout his career, I agree that he's more of a compiler than an out of this world superstar. Jackson, however, is an out of this world superstar and was one of the Top 3 players in baseball in his era.

Remember, Jackson, Mike Schmidt, Johnny Bench, George Brett, etc. played in an era of pitchers. All of their all-around stats don't compare with other great players in different eras. They either have high batting averages and mediocre Home Run totals, or the opposite. There isn't one player in that era with a high (.310+) lifetime average and a big (450+) Home Run total.

Jackson had 563 Home Runs, which was SIXTH ALL-TIME when he retired. Think about that. He was a 14 time All-Star, 1973 MVP, two time World Series MVP, had four home run Titles, had three Home Runs in one World Series game, played in 11 postseasons, was the best player on the A's dynasty (3 straight championships), and won back to back Titles with the Yankees. He also made a run at Maris' record in the first half of 1969 before tailing off, and is one of the greatest post-season players of all time. The nickname, "Mr. October" should say it all. He's not a complier in any way, shape, or form. He was one of the all-time greats.

"Anyway... Dimaggio wasn't the first 5 tool player... He wasn't even the first 5 tool player named Joe."

Shoeless Joe wasn't a 5 Tool player. He had little power (his high was 12 Home Runs & his next highest total was 7), and couldn't run as well as Joe D. Shoeless played Left & DiMag played Centerfield, big difference.

 

[AKAK]

Shoeless Joe wasn't a 5 Tool player. He had little power (his high was 12 Home Runs & his next highest total was 7), and couldn't run as well as Joe D. Shoeless played Left & DiMag played Centerfield, big difference.

Dimaggio had 30 career steals.

Snooze.

I'm sure your boy GHR has a better 5 tool resume than Joe D. (Ruth was a much better fielder than he gets credit for....)

Probably that George Sisler character that Ichiro's chasing does too....

Also- Joe Jackson was a true deadball era player...He had a pretty nice slugging pct... which I think probably makes up for his Homerun #'s

 

[Sloopy45]

AKAK: "Dimaggio had 30 career steals."

Steals aren't the be-all, end-all demarcation like of "run," "can't run." For example, Bernie Williams is a world class sprinter, but not a great base-stealer. DiMag was one of the fastest players in baseball in his era, and played in one of the most cavernous Centerfields in baseball. Plus, he batted third throughout his career, which doesn't call for stolen bases. By the same token, Mantle was the fastest player in baseball when he came up, but not an elite base stealer.

"I'm sure your boy GHR has a better 5 tool resume than Joe D. (Ruth was a much better fielder than he gets credit for....)"

Ruth was a better base stealer (123 career) than Joe, but not a fast runner. Again, proficiency on the base paths is more determined by base running prowess more than pure speed. Ruth played right-field, and Joe D played Center. Again, big difference. Ruth wasn't a fast runner by any means. However, if you add in Ruth's pitching prowess, he might be the only seven-tool player in baseball history, but that's a story for another day.

"Probably that George Sisler character that Ichiro's chasing does too...."

Sisler played most of his prime in the live-ball era (starting in 1920) and his highest HR total was 19 (2nd highest was 12, twice). Great player, but again, not a power hitter, and not a "five tool" player.

"Also- Joe Jackson was a true deadball era player...He had a pretty nice slugging pct... which I think probably makes up for his Homerun #'s"

No one in the dead-ball era can be considered "five tool." Was it different circumstances? Yes. But the bottom line is, they didn't hit for power, and that is one of the "five tools." Jackson had a high SLG pct, but that's mostly because he was a doubles hitter and an elite triples hitter (had 168 career three-baggers and led the league thrice - quite impressive!). Shoeless Joe also only had one season with 100+ RBI (121 in 1920). You heard me right: One season! That's not a classic power hitter by any means.

 

[AKAK]

Well, my only argument to that would be if steals aren't the demarcation line between run and Can't Run... then Home Runs aren't the line between power and no power...

More on this in a bit... damn Work.

 

[Sloopy45]

AKAK: "Well, my only argument to that would be if steals aren't the demarcation line between run and Can't Run... then Home Runs aren't the line between power and no power..."

I disagree, but I guess you can make an argument on that side. To me, power is plain and simple: you either are a home run hitter, or you are not. But, you can have 4.3 speed and not be a great base stealer.

Like I said, Bernie Williams is the best example: in his prime, he was as fast as any player in the game, but he never could steal bases. I don't know how "power" could be listed as a tool, but the player doesn't hit home runs.

I also don't think you're taking defense into account at all. You have to have great speed to play the defensive position that the Yankee Clipper played.

The term "five tool player" was born with DiMaggio.

Plus, a lot of the players we're talking about is purely speculation: since throwing is one of the 5-Tools, how would you or I be able to comment on George Sisler's arm strength? Or Shoeless Joe?

 

[AKAK]

Plus, a lot of the players we're talking about is purely speculation: since throwing is one of the 5-Tools, how would you or I be able to comment on George Sisler's arm strength? Or Shoeless Joe?

I have no idea about Sisler to be honest... but he did start 8 games one season (going 4-4) Jackson had a cannon with 183 outfield assists in 13 seasons (30 more than Dimaggio) (Their fielding pct, .962 for Jackson and .974 for Dimaggio... really tend to not impress me... For example your pal Bernie Williams goes at .990, w/ 56 Assists... but I don't think anyone ever accused Bernie of having a Huge cannon.)

Also your Boy Bernie... has 143 SB's in his career... which tells me that he at least stole bases of opportunity, unlike DiMaggio.... Just for fun... I heard a stat that Edgar Martinez Stole his 49th career base last night against the Tribe.. (Didn't check it, but its probablly True)... So.. maybe Dimaggio did have great speed... but he doesn't seem to have ever used it to his advantage.

 

[Sloopy45]

AKAK: "I have no idea about Sisler to be honest... but he did start 8 games one season (going 4-4)"

Sisler (and I had no idea that he pitched before today), actually pitched in seven different seasons from 1915 to 1928. His lifetime W-L was 5-6 with a 2.35 career ERA. Not bad for one of the greatest hitters of all time.

"Their fielding pct, .962 for Jackson and .974 for Dimaggio... really tend to not impress me"

IMO, fielding PCT is the most useless stat in the sport. But, I get your point.

"but I don't think anyone ever accused Bernie of having a Huge cannon"

Bernie's arm has always been average (at best!!). He's definately NOT a five tool player.

"Also your Boy Bernie... has 143 SB's in his career... which tells me that he at least stole bases of opportunity, unlike DiMaggio"

143 SB's isn't that impressive, especially considering that Bernie's high is 17 in a season. Gawdy stolen base totals come and go with the era's style of baseball: Ty Cobb stole 96 in 1915, which was the modern record for 47 years until Maury Wills broke it in 1962 (104). Up through the 1910's, the stolen base was the major weapon in baseball (kindof what the HR is today). When the liveball era hit, teams stopped running completely. Of the top 95 single season stolen base totals of all time, not a single one occured in the 20's, 30's, 40's, or 50's. Not a single one. That should be a strong indicator as to why the SB totals are so low for the 'Clipper: nobody ran in those days. Nobody.

The stolen base came back into prominence in the 1960's with Maury Wills and Lou Brock. It had another resurgance in the 80's with Rickey (Being Rickey) Henderson and Vince Coleman. (BTW, Henderson's SB records will NEVER!! be broken, and 130 in 1982 will never be approached).

 

[AKAK]

IMO, fielding PCT is the most useless stat in the sport. But, I get your point.

Yeah, it sucks... I guess we could dig around and find some interminably boring sabermetric stat that calculates the impact of fielders on games won by their team... but I tend to think those types of things relate more to Shortstops than outfileders and even if we did find them, what we would likely find is that we've got a couple darned good outfielders on our hands and with probably very little statistical significance between them.

Speaking of Sabermetrics, I noticed that Joe Jackson is 7th all time in adjusted OPS.... predictably, he is the only player not in the top ten not in the hall of fame (or soon to be, Bonds #3, McGwire t-10th).

So... How about Rickey... 5 tools?