Tim Beck (HC Coastal Carolina)

[Systems_id]

I made a post exclusively discussing the offensive disparity and your rebuttal is exclusively referencing the defense They did not show vast improvement over late 2014 OSU. They showed vast improvement over the overall season with lots of new faces learning their way in 2014.
Could you actually state your argument here? What is it?

I believe I've already made my argument fairly clear in my posts: Coaching, both co-OC's more specifically, are culprits of our offensive struggles in 2015 and 2016. You seem to strongly hint that the loss of Devin Smith and Evan Spencer could explain the offensive woes. I pointed out that the defense lost equally important players yet they still got better. Why is that?

That the defense was good in varying circumstances thus it proves that the offense wasn't sloppy and uninspiring in their effort and execution? I think it proves that you can excel in those situations but hardly disproves the offensive play. The blocking was weak. The effort was weak. The confidence was minimal. The nastiness was missing. They sleep walked through most of the year and it finally caught up with them. Once it did, they finally got ticked off and had something to prove and played like it. That scheme wasn't different against Michigan (which is usually lost in the "IN THE BOOTH!@!!" chatter). They ran almost the exact same stuff but they executed it with the fervor of 2014.

One side of the ball was, as you described, playing sloppy and uninspired despite losing minimal talent. The other side of the ball had improved from where they were a year ago. The 2015 offense regressed significantly while the 2015 defense improved despite losing equally important pieces. Again, who's fault is that?

 

[jwinslow]

I believe I've already made my argument fairly clear in my posts: Coaching, both co-OC's more specifically, are culprits of our offensive struggles in 2015 and 2016. You seem to strongly hint that the loss of Devin Smith and Evan Spencer could explain the offensive woes. I pointed out that the defense lost equally important players yet they still got better. Why is that?

Because the defensive scheme and coaching is a lot better than their offensive counterparts. Urban hired Ash and Schiano but his fingerprints are not all over the defense. They aren't just present on the offensive side of the ball, he IS the offense. You can make the same argument with Tressel.

When Urban's O has great talent and great playcalling and great execution, then they might be good in a tough spot, or he might button it up and forget who Elliott is and call an absurdly cowardly gameplan. Or he might have an incredible rushing attack with his QB & RB but struggle greatly to complete passes downfield under any of his OCs (outside of one 3 game stretch with a very atypical Meyer QB and the best downfield WR in the history of the school).

When Urban's D has great coaching and schemes, they're usually going to be pretty good regardless of talent. They may vary between kind of good to great, but they'll field a pretty impressive unit more often than not.

One side of the ball was, as you described, playing sloppy and uninspired despite losing minimal talent. The other side of the ball had improved from where they were a year ago. The 2015 offense regressed significantly while the 2015 defense improved despite losing equally important pieces. Again, who's fault is that?

I would disagree that the 2015 defense improved, but the overall point of their remarkable execution with substantial losses is taken.

 

[Systems_id]

One thing that needs to be made crystal clear, I am no fan of Tim Beck. I simply want people to realize who is actually behind the problems with this offense. If they fired Tim Beck this offseason, Ed got a HC job, Stud had the OL playing pretty well and JT came back for one more year, it would be pretty shocking to see OSU not have the same struggles next year.

It's possible but 2015 still leaves me with a lot of doubt and brings me to the conclusion that Ed and Tim are just mediocre OCs. I guess we'll see.

I'm asking you to not lose sight of how Tressel offenses played. They were generally pretty loaded with talent, frequently having 2-3 really good WRs, a good to great tailback, a steady if not strong QB and good talent upfront. Yet they almost always fielded methodical, predictable offenses for the vast majority of the year. Then against Michigan, they would pick their spots to break out new things, and then usually they would feature a much more aggressive offensive attack in the bowl game. Fans desperately wished for Tressel to call plays like that all year.

Urban runs a pretty aggressive offense for most of the year and goes Tresselball a few times a year. Like I said, I think those diversions from the mean are as common as Tressel's diversions from Tresselball.

My point with the Tressel comment was that his offenses have never straight up regressed before when he's had significant talent returning. At worst they held serve.

Edit: Yay quotes

 

[jwinslow]

It's possible but 2015 still leaves me with a lot of doubt and brings me to the conclusion that Ed and Tim are just mediocre OCs. I guess we'll see.

I don't disagree. I'm asking you to re-consider what that means big picture. Why were they hired, why are they still on staff, why is Urban letting them do things he doesn't want them to do (he never would). Or maybe they're really limited but fit what he is comfortable doing.

My point with the Tressel comment was that his offenses have never straight up regressed before when he's had significant talent returning. At worst they held serve.

2005 regressed for the first half of the year and wasted JT's best team. They need Krenzel-esque production from that offense to beat Texas and instead they got Bauserman production.

Tressel's offenses also tended to be kind of good but not elite, so it wasn't hard to maintain that level.

 

[Systems_id]

Because the defensive scheme and coaching is a lot better than their offensive counterparts. Urban hired Ash and Schiano but his fingerprints are not all over the defense. They aren't just present on the offensive side of the ball, he IS the offense. You can make the same argument with Tressel.

When Urban's O has great talent and great playcalling and great execution, then they might be good in a tough spot, or he might button it up and forget who Elliott is and call an absurdly cowardly gameplan. Or he might have an incredible rushing attack with his QB & RB but struggle greatly to complete passes downfield under any of his OCs (outside of one 3 game stretch with a very atypical Meyer QB and the best downfield WR in the history of the school).

When Urban's D has great coaching and schemes, they're usually going to be pretty good regardless of talent. They may vary between kind of good to great, but they'll field a pretty impressive unit more often than not.
I would disagree that the 2015 defense improved, but the overall point of their remarkable execution with substantial losses is taken.

Fair enough.

 

[Jagdaddy]

I don't disagree. I'm asking you to re-consider what that means big picture. Why were they hired, why are they still on staff, why is Urban letting them do things he doesn't want them to do (he never would). Or maybe they're really limited but fit what he is comfortable doing.
2005 regressed for the first half of the year and wasted JT's best team. They need Krenzel-esque production from that offense to beat Texas and instead they got Bauserman production.

Tressel's offenses also tended to be kind of good but not elite, so it wasn't hard to maintain that level.

Troy Smith's suspension had a lot to do with the 2005 regression IMO.

 

[Systems_id]

I don't disagree. I'm asking you to re-consider what that means big picture. Why were they hired, why are they still on staff, why is Urban letting them do things he doesn't want them to do (he never would). Or maybe they're really limited but fit what he is comfortable doing.

All good questions. As for the question of why Beck was hired and why Warriner was promoted, Urban could have simply overestimated their abilities and made a mistake. It happens. Happened with Withers and he got that fixed. The same could and will probably happen here. As for why're still on staff, I assume that two-year contract generally tends to go both ways. Withers got two years before he was shown the door. Plus I don't know of any head coach that has canned a coordinator after one year unless it's for off-the-field problems. But I do agree with your assertion that they are doing only what he's comfortable is doing and thus why the offense seems so limited.

2005 regressed for the first half of the year and wasted JT's best team. They need Krenzel-esque production from that offense to beat Texas and instead they got Bauserman production.

Tressel's offenses also tended to be kind of good but not elite, so it wasn't hard to maintain that level.

I don't think so, they started about where they left off last year. They lit up Michigan of course but statistics go out the window for those games. The week before they lost to Purdue and had trouble putting up points. In the bowl game they lit up a garbage OkieState defense when Troy was suspended. Yeah they struggled with Texas but that Texas D was actually pretty great. Finished in the Top 5 if I remember correctly.

 

[jwinslow]

Troy Smith's suspension had a lot to do with the 2005 regression IMO.

Absolutely, but overall I would say they were good at best during that season despite some ridiculous talent.

 

[BuckeyeNation27]

Troy Smith's suspension had a lot to do with the 2005 regression IMO.

You're welcome, Texas.

 

[Jaxbuck]

You seem to strongly hint that the loss of Devin Smith and Evan Spencer could explain the offensive woes. I pointed out that the defense lost equally important players yet they still got better. Why is that?

I would argue that is because the players that replaced the departed on defense were able to play at a high enough level as to not make the defense play "left handed" as it were.

There has not been a WR that replaced Devin Smiths skill set, and what that allowed the offense to do, since he left.

IMO, this is the single biggest reason Meyer wanted Cardale to be the QB in 2015. He knows that his offense is lethal if defenses have to respect the deep ball.

I'm not personally defending the OC's, I just think the lions share of the issue is to be found in the sub standard WR play, specifically a legit deep threat, through '15 and so far in '16.

 

[ScriptOhio]

I would argue that is because the players that replaced the departed on defense were able to play at a high enough level as to not make the defense play "left handed" as it were.

There has not been a WR that replaced Devin Smiths skill set, and what that allowed the offense to do, since he left.

IMO, this is the single biggest reason Meyer wanted Cardale to be the QB in 2015. He knows that his offense is lethal if defenses have to respect the deep ball.

I'm not personally defending the OC's, I just think the lions share of the issue is to be found in the sub standard WR play, specifically a legit deep threat, through '15 and so far in '16.

I'd like to add "I just think the lions share of the issue is to be found in the sub standard WR & TE play and the lack of accuracy/touch on a lot of JT Barrett's passes.

1) Now Baugh did make to 2 catches with an outstanding yards after catch effort against Penn State; one was for a TD and another got a first down. Also, in Baugh's defense, apparently he hasn't been 100% healthy.....

Live Updates from the Oct. 27 Urban Meyer Call-In Show
Urban Meyer Updates
+ Marcus Baugh's touchdown reception was a well-executed play. Baugh hasn't been 100% yet this season, dealing with a shoulder and an ankle. The Buckeyes should be stronger at tight end, but they're just so young and they've been dinged up a little. Jake Hausmann is getting close to playing. "He's on call."
http://theozone.net/Ohio-State/Foot...ates-from-the-Oct-27-Urban-Meyer-Call-In-Show

2) Just my observation here: maybe it is poor route running by the WRs, a "timing issue", or an overall lack of familiarity with some of the new WRs, but it seems to me that JT has been "off target" with many of his passes this year.

 

[Jaxbuck]

I'd like to add "I just think the lions share of the issue is to be found in the sub standard WR & TE play and the lack of accuracy/touch on a lot of JT Barrett's passes.

great post

i agree

 

[NorthCoastKid]

 

[NJ-Buckeye]

May not be able to coach.. but dang, the dude can recruit

 

[Jake]

When Tressel's offense is referenced it's usually called "Tressel's offense" but when the current offense is mentioned it rarely is called "Urban's offense", as though Beck/Warriner are running something foreign to UM and he's powerless to stop it. How is one head coach responsible but the other is not?