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College Playoff

Discussion in 'College Football' started by Oh8ch, Dec 3, 2003.

  1. MililaniBuckeye

    MililaniBuckeye The satanic soulless freight train that is Ohio St Staff Member Tech Admin

    Well, then you should'nt be chiming in on this then, huh? While the discussion is indeed about the I-A playoffs, how it is done at the lower levels most certainly relates. For your info, the 16-team playoff format is so "ridiculous" that it has been that way since at least 1991 (when YSU won their first title), and I'm pretty sure it has been that way for a lot longer. By the way, YSU was ranked outside of the top eight in the end-of-regular-season polls in one of the years they won the title (#11 in 1993, IIRC), so having a 16-team field is quite acceptable.
  2. 23Skidoo

    23Skidoo It's so Japaneasy

    This is DIA, not DIAA/DII/DIII -- and knowing the ins and outs of their system is as applicable as knowing the ins and outs of MLB, NFL, NBA, etc. playoffs. Especially being that I only responded in reference to an argument that had nothing specifically to do with your preferred playoff scenario, and in fact applies to all playoff scenarios.
    What you're saying is that it's quite acceptable because it happened to be YSU? Seems to me YSU maybe didn't deserve to be there in the first place, but JT's team proved they only need to be hot for 1 part of the season to get the championship in a playoff system -- and his big game preparation came through for them. Good for JT, good for YSU. They earned it. But making an emotionally-slanted argument isn't going to get you any points with me.
  3. 23Skidoo

    23Skidoo It's so Japaneasy

    Who is going to watch the Capital One Bowl B10 #4 - SEC #5 ? Remember, this is going on the same time as the playoffs.
    Considering that's the best-case scenario, what would happen to the midmajors? They'd be done for.
  4. MililaniBuckeye

    MililaniBuckeye The satanic soulless freight train that is Ohio St Staff Member Tech Admin

    My dip[Mark May] alarm just went off, so I had to come back and see why. :roll1:

    The level of competition doesn't determine which playoff format to use. You think I-AA and III are about the same level?

    Evidentially YSU deserved to be there, because they ended up beating three higher seeds to win the title...looking back, I think the year was 1997, not 1993, when they were ranked outside the top eight at the end of the regular season yet made the playoffs. The reason why they made the playoffs despite being outside the top eight was because their only two losses were to conference foes Northern Iowa and Western Illinois, both of who finished ranked higher than YSU and both losses were only by three points (the loss to WIU was the last game of the regular season which dropped them out of the top eight). Despite being stuck in the Gateway Conference, which was head-and-shoulders above any other I-AA conference, they still finished 9-2 including a 21-point blowout of a MAC team. They were totally deserving of a playoff spot and proved it by winning three consecutive playoff games--including the title game--on the road.
  5. 23Skidoo

    23Skidoo It's so Japaneasy

    Look i can chop posts up to make up a bs argument and play strawman too.

    I said knowing the other division's playoff is as applicable as knowing other sport's playoff systems -- and I seem to recall the NFL being included in that list, yeap, it is. Thus, obviously, your entire argument is blown out of the water.
    The next time you want to mouth off and call somebody else an idiot, I suggest you actually read what they said first.
  6. MililaniBuckeye

    MililaniBuckeye The satanic soulless freight train that is Ohio St Staff Member Tech Admin

    How do the playoff systems of totally different sports apply here? I notice that you conveniently ignore my proof (YSU's 1997 season). If anyone's argument was deep-sixed, it was yours...
  7. 23Skidoo

    23Skidoo It's so Japaneasy

    They apply just as much as playoff systems from other divisions. That's my point and I'm sticking to it.
  8. MililaniBuckeye

    MililaniBuckeye The satanic soulless freight train that is Ohio St Staff Member Tech Admin

    JFC. If you can't comprehend how I-AA football playoffs relate to I-A football playoffs, and insist on comparing them to baseball and basketball, then allow me to go spread some rep around so I can ding your 23Skidip[Mark May] ass again...
  9. 23Skidoo

    23Skidoo It's so Japaneasy

    As I'm sure you know, NFL stands for National Football League.
    What is your problem, man? You cannot give me any reason why other college football division playoffs are more applicable to DIA CFB other than to say that they share a couple of words? (Thought I should get this out before you come up with a post highlighting the word college)
    Ttown likes this.
  10. MililaniBuckeye

    MililaniBuckeye The satanic soulless freight train that is Ohio St Staff Member Tech Admin

    How about where you said, quote:
    Last time I checked, MLB stood for Major League Baseball, and NBA stood for National Basketball Association. As for "You cannot give me any reason why other college football division playoffs are more applicable to DIA CFB other than to say that they share a couple of words", it is not a matter of a couple words, but rather that I-A football is the same fucking sport as I-AA, II, and III football. Oh yeah, college football is way different than pro, in that there are 119 teams vice 32. The NFL has, what, 12 teams make the playoffs? Twelve out of 32 is 37.5% of the teams making the playoffs, while 16 of 119 is only 13.5%...
  11. 23Skidoo

    23Skidoo It's so Japaneasy

    Well at least it's good to see we're finally getting down to the brass tacks here, instead of throwing out a bunch of meaningless insults.
    As for the other sports -- in the context which I replied, they're applicable. Arguments can and have been made from those other playoffs to show that playoffs, like it or not, diminish the regular season.
    But if you are so hell-bound on sticking to football, I'll use your own DIAA scenario w/JT's old stomping grounds.
    You stated YSU got into the playoffs as a lower seed because they lost to 2 teams in conference, who were ranked ahead of them. Now, in 1997, they didn't face either of these teams again. However, let's just say they did for hypothetical purposes, and won both times. That would mean that the first 2 games where they lost, were virtually meaningless outside of a "seed" and homefield advantage. But, in the end, only 1 of those games actually counts for anything and we all know that on any given Saturday a top-25 team can upset a top-5 team. The question isn't whether a top-16 team can get hot at the end of the year and win out -- we've all seen it before. (Be it YSU, St Louis, Pittsburgh, or Italy) The question is if you're going to hand out 2nd and 3rd chances to everyone -- what is the real point of playing the regular season? If we really want to make this logical and go tourny style, why don't we just split the league into 12 divisions of 10 teams each, everyone plays round-robin in conference. Then the conference champions (and maybe #2 teams as well) go into elimination rounds.
  12. Saw31

    Saw31 High Seas Rogue

    Irrelevant? What? It's the most relevant question the playoff supporters must answer...

    People are now advocating 16 team playoffs. So let's go with that for now. That's eight Bowl games' slots filled in the first round alone...According to the list of Bowl payouts I referenced earlier, that's $7+ million redistributed to the top 16 teams, just in the first round alone (I used the "lowest tier" Bowls to calculate this). The second round would take 4 Bowl games' slots and another $6+ million to the same teams that got the first round payouts (I used the next "lowest tier" games, but you would probably have to start paying out the big money in this round, since these "top 8" teams would be getting BCS money, $17 million each, in the Bowl system. So my figure of only $6+ million, or $3+ million each, kills this plan right here most likely, without really ramping up the payouts). Then another $4+ million to the semi-finalists and two more Bowl games filled (The money goes upwards of $68 million depending on what payout rules you are using. At this point you would almost certainly have to pay the big time money that the BCS currently pays, so it would be much closer to $68 million than to $4+ million). Then $34 million to the finalists. You've now used up 15 Bowls of the 32 Bowls now in existence and given out upwards of $51-115+ million (depending on payout method) to just the top teams each year. Where did all your consolation games go? They have been used up in this "utilize the existing Bowls" idea. You have shut out what, 24-30 teams or so to accomadate 16 by using up these Bowls slots. It's not going to happen, ever. You have maybe two non-BCS teams/conferences represented each year, most likely being eliminated in the first round or two (small money). If they make it to the second round and the "Top 8" that would equal the big money in the Bowl system, but not in this playoff system most likely. You expect them to vote for this? All the while, the power conferences not only reel in the big money from the major Bowls, but they also take money away from the lesser Bowls that would normally be filled by the smaller conferences. It's not like I'm the first person to think of this. This is why there is no playoff now...And then none of what I've said has even taken into consideration that aside from the 4 Major Bowls, none of these Bowl games are affiliated with each other in any way. The 4 Major Bowls only being loosely affiliated. These Bowls are all seperate and independant organizations with different payouts and are in most respects competitors, not likely to cooperate...IT'S NEVER HAPPENING...

    I say again, the D1AA and Div. III playoffs are not a part of this discussion. I don't care about the brackets or how it's done in the other divisions. Frankly, I don't even care if it's a football to football comparison or not. This is not about the "show". It's about the "logistics", as always. It's about dividing the spoils in a way that everyone would agree. The money generated by D1A dwarfs the other divisions and is not going to be consolidated in the warchests of the top teams/conferences without a fight, period. A fight that the smaller schools/conferences would win, either with their votes or in court/congress later. Those teams/conferences are equal members when it comes to deciding these questions. I explained earlier that even in a "home field advantage" type playoff setup, you are expecting teams to play more games for less income then what's available to them in the Bowl system, unless you somehow believe that the money fairy is just going to add millions and millions of dollars more to the process than what is there now (a very shaky assumption for a variety of reasons including the fact that according to polls, nearly half of college football fans are fans exactly because it's not like the NFL. i;e no playoffs). These are business decisions and from what I see, this would be bad business or at the very best, "risky" business...

    The fact that people continue to ignore this aspect of the playoff problem amazes me. It is the only hurdle of any real significance, yet people just gloss over it like it's unimportant. The BCS and it's conferences were already threatened with lawsuits and congressional action because of the exclusivity of the pre-expansion BCS arrangement. But now you believe that we will do a "super-consolidation" of all that money into the power conferences? It's never happening. Just look at the numbers we're dealing with here...The best any of you playoff supporters can ever hope for is a +1 system, very similar to what this year will be, but you would proabably need to add that 5th Major Bowl payout (Cotton Bowl maybe) to still allow 10 teams to participate or face previously mentioned civil/congressional action. Aside from that, the rest is just the same noise we hear every year...There is too much money on the table and too much at stake in terms of financing these giant athletic departments across the country to expect some easy, "no big deal" transition away from the Bowl system.
  13. Jaxbuck

    Jaxbuck I hate tsun

    There is no scenario like this under the current BCS. The most like situation would be in the NFL when a team knows it has the final playoff spot locked up going into the last game of the year. Do you think they put in the starters and go full bore?

    The season has gone from 8 to 12 games a year and 1 loss still cripples you. Its not the length of a season that diminishes the impact of a single loss, its the playoff waiting at the end.

    Missed my point entirely. tsun still has hope after losing The Game, they are still in our mythical playoff scenario with a shot at the NC. Maybe in a weaker position but in none the less.

    If a guaranteed playoff spot is waiting for both teams no matter what The Game on 11/18 just doesn't have as much on the line and is therefore negatively affected by a playoff.

    Again, a playoff detracts from the regular season. The only question is to what degree.
  14. HailToMichigan

    HailToMichigan Maize and Blue Wahoo

    Saw31, as usual, has hit the nail on the head with a mighty sledgehammer. But it's even simpler than that.....

    A playoff system can be done one of two ways: Either utilize the bowls, or don't (and therefore play at home stadiums).

    If you utilize the bowls:

    - One of the current BCS Four (Fiesta, Sugar, Orange, Rose) will be screwed every year, because there are only three games between the semifinals and finals. They will not agree to this.

    - The larger the playoff, the more fans have to travel. A 16-team playoff means four games for two of the teams. Do you really think fans from Columbus are going to travel to, say, El Paso for the Sun Bowl, then Jacksonville for the Gator, then Miami for the Orange, then Pasadena for the Rose? The earlier bowls will not fill up like they do under the current system. They will not agree to this.

    - I've seen it suggested that one of the four BCS games would be a consolation matchup for "third place" to prevent the first point from happening. NOBODY would travel to that game! A meaningless consolation matchup after having been through three weeks already??

    If you don't utilize the bowls:

    - You suck up all the money from the bowl system. You not only decapitate the tradition and money for all the current BCS bowls, but you lop a solid 4-8 bowls right off the bottom, because there aren't qualified teams for them.

    - You have a money distribution nightmare. Teams who had a bye would be furious because they lose out on gate receipts. You could evenly distribute all the gate money, but teams that advance would be screwed because they incur extra travel costs (or hosting costs) but no extra revenue. There's no end to the problems down that road.

    Saw31 is explaining the money issues far better than ever I could. And he might be the only one who understands that looking at it from a competition perspective completely misses the point. Non D-IA playoffs are absolutely a non-issue. The sport is the same. The economics are night and day. D-III doesn't even allow scholarships. It's like comparing the World Series to Little League.
  15. MililaniBuckeye

    MililaniBuckeye The satanic soulless freight train that is Ohio St Staff Member Tech Admin

    Assuming I still have over 1,000,000 vCash a few years down the road, I'll put that much on I-A football going to a playoff system, and probably a lot sooner than many think. The media is now in the "full advocate" mode, and you know what that means. Until this year or last year, you couldn't catch a I-AA playoff game on ESPN or CBS other than the title ESPN and ESPN2 are broadcasting games from each round. I've seen both of YSU's games so far and will see their semi-final round game today. Broadcast support will be huge in the move towards a playoff system.

    The major bowls being "loosely affiliated" is what will hurt them in trying to keep the status quo. All it takes is for one of them to seriously consider ponying up to a playoff, and the others will be in the cold. Hell, it wasn't decade back that everyone said that the major Jan 1 bowl games (Rose, Orange, Sugar, Fiesta, etc.) would never be played on a day other than Jan 1 because of tradition. Well, money talks and tradition walks. Hell, only two of those games (Rose and Fiesta) will be played on Jan 1 this year (Orange is Jan 2 and Sugar is Jan 3). And the title game is no longer being played in an established major bowl game.

    The playoff systems in the other divisions are indeed are part of the discussion, because they are the living proof that playoffs work. All the bogus arguments about "logistics" (fans can't make it to all the games, it infringes on class time, we don't have the money) are just that--bogus. It will take time for the power-that-be to line up the rounds with existing bowl games, but it will happen. Sponsors of the lower- and mid-tier bowl games would much rather have a first-round or quarter-final round playoff game featuring nationally-ranked powers than one between some 7-4 and 6-5 teams.

    The playoffs will happen...

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