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Is three enough?

Discussion in 'Buckeye Football' started by IrontonBuck, Dec 2, 2004.

  1. IrontonBuck

    IrontonBuck Walk On

    Reflecting on Ty Willingham's firing. I'm just wondering if it is realistic to expect any coach to turn a program around in three years? I'm not sure, myself. I know Stoops and Tressel won NC's in their second years. But aren't they the extreme example?

    Secondarily, is it fair to look at a coach's short-term progress and judge the likelihood of his long-term success? Especially in the case of TW, who was, according to the ND AD, doing everything right Monday through Friday.

    For illustration, I would direct your attention to the Ohio State-Michigan football game of 2004. Who would have predicted Ohio State's total domination in that game, given the mess we have seen all year? How can you tell how a team is coming together, until it does?
  2. Bucklion

    Bucklion Throwback Staff Member Former Premier League Champ

    I hate ND, and am sick of all of the hullaballoo about Willingham and the racial stuff, but I have to say that whatever the reason they fired him, 3 years is not enough for a coach. I am assuming that one expects a coach to be able to recruit players and win games, and to fire a coach while his recruiting class is sophomores is just not right. Ironically, Frank Solich had a better arguement than Willingham, given he played for a championship and then was 9-3 his final season, and they canned him too. I have no idea why they fired David Cutcliffe either, given he had 5 winning seasons out of 6 at tradition-modest Ole Miss. The bottom line to me is that people (boosters especially) are looking at turnarounds that Urban Meyer and Mike Price have produced, not realizing that these are lower-tier programs that are easier to turn around, or Jim Tressel, who won a title and has been great and all, but that was an exception to the rule, and the jury is still out (in the public eye, anyway) as to how good they'll be next year, of course, as he completely phases in his own recruits. Unrealistic expectations are not going to be met, and let's go ask Nebraska how much they are glad they fired Solich now.
  3. BuckeyeNation27

    BuckeyeNation27 Goal Goal USA! Staff Member

    hey, the school doesnt want to wait around hoping that willingham gets better. i dont blame them. everybody says "give him 5 years to get his sytem working" as if the school has 2 years laying around that they can give to ty, just to see if he can get better. he wasnt getting better, he was getting worse.

    better to kill the damn beast early rather then have it torment you for 2 more years hoping it gets better.
  4. osugrad21

    osugrad21 Capo Regime Staff Member

    Progress is not getting by 30+ on numerous occasions. Imagine tOSU getting blasted by scUM every year....ND was simply smart enough to not tolerate it for 13 years.
  5. stagtennis

    stagtennis Rose Bowl Bound!!!!

    I partially agree with you nation. I agree that if there is a problem, then get rid of it.

    What I don't agree with is Notre Dame's approach. They hired TW and his system. His core specialized players were true frosh and true sophs. How many teams earn great records playing with such a young team? The Bucks in 68 is the only one I can think of. I really think TY needed two more years. They must really want Urban.

    To add to my post, Ty didn't do a great job recruiting. This had to play a big role in his departure. The administration probably thought that he would really exceed expectations in this department.
  6. BuckeyeNation27

    BuckeyeNation27 Goal Goal USA! Staff Member

    if thats the case then i wouldnt want a coach who cant win with the players already in place. what kind of athletes does the guy need? i hope he didnt expect to have miami's talent.
  7. osugrad21

    osugrad21 Capo Regime Staff Member

    I hate to use a NDChief argument, but it is a valid point. An interview yesterday stated that ND coaches looked over the top 100 prospects in the nation, only 30 would possibily pass ND admissions as compared to at least 90 at most other major college football schools. That makes for a difficult task.
  8. stagtennis

    stagtennis Rose Bowl Bound!!!!

    I totally agree!

    But that was the admin's choice in the first place. When guy's change systems, they change personnel needs. Ty biggest error just may have been starting Quinn as a true frosh, especially when he had a QB that took him to a ten win season. Starting Quinn as a true frosh would have benefited him in the future as it will now benefit their next coach.

    The same thing is happenning at Nebraska. I wonder how patient Husker nation will be while their new system is being implemented. Daly is not a solid run and shoot QB (imo).
  9. osugrad21

    osugrad21 Capo Regime Staff Member

    Definitely good points. Quinn showed definite progress this year but now has to learn a new system. Patience has to be displayed again for whomever is hired.

    It definitely gives the race card organizations fuel for that fire.
  10. gbearbuck

    gbearbuck Herbie for President

    I think the school was better under Ty than it was under Davie... I would have given him two more years that were left on his contract. Unless he really stepped up those two years, I prob. wouldn't have extended his contract.

    Even Tressel has had two "bad" years in his four years as HC. Granted a NC will buy you some extra time (as will a 3-1 record against those weasels up north :biggrin: )...
  11. DaytonBuck

    DaytonBuck I've always liked them

    I think the writing was on the wall with Ty. After that hot start he hadn't done much of anything. Losing to USC I think would be tolerated but getting blown out by them again and winning their QB a Heisman, losing to a bad BYU team, losing to Boston College for the third time in a row, and having people say this is Navy's best chance for win over a ND in years isn't exactly progress. They saw a better coach and went after him. This ND is bigger than winning and has more integrity stick by sports writers is hogwash. DI football is a big money, results now game for every program for every program outside of the academies. ND became what is today and got a fat NBC contract by winning football games, not by having wholesome ethics, pride or any other cute intangible. Not saying ND is a sleaze ball program but ND was and is about winning college football games not being fair and gracious to their coaches.

    I think Nebraska's situation is even more black and white than Notre Dames. It was pretty obvious that Huskers were going down hill under Solich. He didn't get canned for not winning but for the growing gap between them and Oklahoma and Texas. Husker's under Solich would have a tough time keeping up them. Callahan gives them a chance to close the gap and get back to a BCS title game.
  12. stagtennis

    stagtennis Rose Bowl Bound!!!!

    Grad21...nice post. No programs need "Miami" talent to win. I don't think the admissions excuse is 100% valid. ND is defintely lacking speed on the outside. Anyone that reads or any other news source has read about that. I think that they have done a poor job landing the 3 star athlete. They are not landing the AJ Hawk, the Chris Gamble 3 star recruit that turns into an AA. Faine was their last one, if I recall correctly.
  13. BuckeyeNation27

    BuckeyeNation27 Goal Goal USA! Staff Member

    my ND buddy told me they just missed out on reggie bush. sucks to be them. i wouldve fired him after this year too seeing how much he torched them.
  14. osugrad21

    osugrad21 Capo Regime Staff Member

    True, but he was also developing the talent he did garner. Take Quinn for instance. It was just unacceptable, IMHO, how the team could rise up to defeat TN (injuries or not) and scUM but lose AGAIN to BC. Throw in how well they played against USC in the first half against USC, only to get out-coached at the half and end up getting blown out. Breakdowns on both sides of the ball gave the USC game away. PC and Chow made adjustments but Ty and staff couldn't answer.

    Its unfortunate for TW that progress is not measure in player development...only in Wins and Losses.
  15. stagtennis

    stagtennis Rose Bowl Bound!!!!

    Nice points grad. I agree. The team never evolved during a game. That is one thing I love about Tressel. He does make a lot of changes throughout the course of a game. I loved during the 2002 season when the team would go in at half and come out and the opposing team could not move the ball on our D.

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