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Is three enough?

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My only speculation is that with the pressure to win NOW, coaches have simply adapted.
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Ironton - thats the Huuge Elephant in the corner that I know some ND alums silently fear..
Win - but at what cost? They will gladly settle for a return to grid-iron glory - they will absolutely not be able to stomach that short-lived fame if it comes at the price of the institutions generally well regarded standing. I tell my ND alum friends that they want to have their cake and eat it too. They tell me that anything is possible at ND. I point them to a couple of books by Lewis Carroll.
 
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My question, and this seems as appropriate a place for it as any, is whether ND is really perceived as being a top-flight academic school, whether it actually is or not. I've heard a fair amount about that lately, but on the whole, at least in the South (hold the jokes and indulge me this one for just a moment or see my recent rant on the political page) ND is not regarded as such; not even close. My guess is that Duke, Vanderbilt, UVA, UNC, GT, and TX, not to mention many other schools in other parts of the country, are regarded as better academic/more prestigious schools than ND. I certainly would rather my kids go to any of those than ND, not because I hate the Irish or anything like that, but because I would think they could do better than South Bend. Moreover, the comparison I've heard this week between Stanford and ND is beyond laughable.

My point, I guess, is that apart from tradition, ND is irrelevant. It's been eclipsed on both the academic and athletic fronts, given its historic prominence. It's now a middle of the road, fallback school for top-flight students and athletes of similar stature. Sorry, Chief. Face the inevitable.
 
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ND is a difficult school to get into (I have a cousin there now), but I don't think the education she'll get is really going to be any better than mine. I don't think ND has any programs ranked in the Top 20 of USN/WR, but I could be wrong about that. It's a good school, certainly not a Sally Struthers Special (Do YOU want to learn how to make more money? Sure, we ALL do!), but it isn't really a whole lot better or different than any other "good" school. Your education is basically what you make it as the student anyway.
 
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Well - here is my take after having spent some time on the academic side of the fence in a professional capacity. Up north & in the Mid-West ND is regarded as better than certain state schools in certain areas. However, say that you wanted a great school for Math or Physics - go to Chicago, for Engineering MIT or CMU, for journalism maybe Northwestern.
The general rep of the ND curricula is very good, though it is by no means a monolithic academic giant in the manner of say a Cal Berkeley or one of the Ivy League Schools.
 
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IrontonBuck said:
Reflecting on Ty Willingham's firing. I'm just wondering if it is realistic to expect any coach to turn a program around in three years? I'm not sure, myself. I know Stoops and Tressel won NC's in their second years. But aren't they the extreme example?

Secondarily, is it fair to look at a coach's short-term progress and judge the likelihood of his long-term success? Especially in the case of TW, who was, according to the ND AD, doing everything right Monday through Friday.

For illustration, I would direct your attention to the Ohio State-Michigan football game of 2004. Who would have predicted Ohio State's total domination in that game, given the mess we have seen all year? How can you tell how a team is coming together, until it does?
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No I don't think three years is enough to turn a program around. I would say more like 5 years. You mention the OSU vs scUM game this year, that brings up an interesting point. Flame me if you want, but if we would have got blown out in that game you can bet JT's job wouldn't be as safe as it is now. I'm not saying he would be fired, but with the off the field trouble and this MoC bullshit, he would feel some serious heat. For better or worse that is the situation in college football. If Notre Dame would have beat UCS, does anyone here think that Tyrone would be fired? One game often decides a coaches future.
 
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I don't buy the "ND's too hard to recruit at because its too hard to get in" theory. Bullshit. Didn't Willingham just come from Stanford? Are the pundits at ND trying to say their academic standards are higher than Stanfords? Give me a break. Willingham won at Stanford. He lost at ND. ITS ND THAT SUCKS not Willingham! It's about a school that is so set in its history that it can't create a future. The Ohio State University has as much or more tradition and history as any other university, yet we have the best facilities of any university bar none and some less fortunate professional organizations. Willingham wasn't given a tremendous chance to succeed yet he really didn't do anything well enough to make them think he might in the future. The next coach will fail at ND also if the program doesn't change with the times its that simple.


Oh and regardless of who ND brings in, they won't schedule tOSU anytime soon! As the saying goes "in order to be the best, you've got to beat the best!" I guess we'll remain on top looking down.
 
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