LB Ryan Shazier (All B1G, All-American, 2017 Pro Bowl)

[SEREbuckeye]

Unnecessary Roughness, Article 8:

(g) If a player uses any part of his helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/”hairline” parts) or
facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily.

Someone please show me in that rule where it says "receiver," or does not cover a running back.

 

[greyscarlet]

Unnecessary Roughness, Article 8:


Someone please show me in that rule where it says "receiver," or does not cover a running back.

That does appear to be the letter of the law, but how has it been applied on the field throughout year? This should move out of the shazier thread

 

[TampaBuckeyes]

According to, you know, an actual former NFL official, Benard established himself as a runner with the ball, whereas Brown was a defenseless player. But don't let an NFL official get in the way of your armchair officiating against a former OSU player, Michigan fan.

I think calling these type of penalties was very inconsistent in the game. Shazier led with his helmet, you get flagged it you use your head as a battering ram on a RB as well. It's called unnecessary roughness. I think defenseless receiver just expands the types of hits that will draw a flag.

 

[jwinslow]

Running backs get hit like that quite a bit, and more importantly, they hit defenders like that all the freaking time with zero fear of repercussions.

It comes down to a judgment call about whether you think the RB was defenseless or had turned and begun being a runner. Obviously the ref correspondent in the booth thought by rule he was a runner. Obviously many here will feel he was still exposed. I've seen that same kind of hit when a ball carrier changes directions and gets wrecked because he didn't see it coming.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Running backs get hit like that quite a bit, and more importantly, they hit defenders like that all the freaking time with zero fear of repercussions.

It comes down to a judgment call about whether you think the RB was defenseless or had turned and begun being a runner. Obviously the ref correspondent in the booth thought by rule he was a runner. Obviously many here will feel he was still exposed. I've seen that same kind of hit when a ball carrier changes directions and gets wrecked because he didn't see it coming.

This

The way the rules are consistently enforced, the Shazier hit was one that could have gone either way.

You can take the Burfict hit and play it at an NFL rookie symposium for head hunting a defenseless receiver.

 

[Honor&Glory]

I don't have a dog in the fight but this sounds very state pennish. Regardless great game by Ryan, wish he wouldn't have hurt anyone but part of the game. I hope he gets his head up next time or he could be the one with a major injury

Without having a dog in the fight it's hard to see. From Keith Gary ripping Ken Andersons head off by his face mask and end zone dancing like a loon (at least this penalty was called) to Heinz Ward crowning Keith Rivers with his helmet and breaking his jaw (no flag) to Kimo with a dirty intentional low blow ripping Palmer's knee (no flag) to an intentional targeting of a punter (broken Jaw, no flag) the Pittsburgh organization is as fucking dirty as they come in any sport but the league does nothing.

 

[jwinslow]

Without having a dog in the fight it's hard to see. From Keith Gary ripping Ken Andersons head off by his face mask and end zone dancing like a loon (at least this penalty was called) to Heinz Ward crowning Keith Rivers with his helmet and breaking his jaw (no flag) to Kimo with a dirty intentional low blow ripping Palmer's knee (no flag) to an intentional targeting of a punter (broken Jaw, no flag) the Pittsburgh organization is as fucking dirty as they come in any sport but the league does nothing.

Does the dirty label apply to Cincinnati too for knowingly employing Burfict? Everyone in the stadium knows a cheapshot is coming at some point. It was talked about all week after he ramped it up again with the idiotic "hate them but its not personal" comment.

 

[SEREbuckeye]

Running backs get hit like that quite a bit, and more importantly, they hit defenders like that all the freaking time with zero fear of repercussions.

It comes down to a judgment call about whether you think the RB was defenseless or had turned and begun being a runner. Obviously the ref correspondent in the booth thought by rule he was a runner. Obviously many here will feel he was still exposed. I've seen that same kind of hit when a ball carrier changes directions and gets wrecked because he didn't see it coming.

The difference though is that the defender is actively looking to destroy the ball carrier (regardless of the position). A ball carrier, when he lowers his head and shoulders is usually just for a few extra yards just before getting wrapped up.

I have yet to see a ball carrier purposefully choose a defender, put his eyes on the turf, lower the crown of his helmet, and crash into the facemask/head of that defender.

This

The way the rules are consistently enforced, the Shazier hit was one that could have gone either way.

You can take the Burfict hit and play it at an NFL rookie symposium for head hunting a defenseless receiver.

Burfict hit with his sholder, it was bad. That said, the Shazier hit was much more dangerous - both for Shazier and Gio. Shazier was purposely gunning the opponent with his head. No different than the hit Bosa was ejected for against ND.

 

[Jaxbuck]

Burfict hit with his sholder, it was bad. That said, the Shazier hit was much more dangerous - both for Shazier and Gio. Shazier was purposely gunning the opponent with his head. No different than the hit Bosa was ejected for against ND.

You get contact with the crown of the helmet when the defender is actually trying to hit the chest quite a bit. It's a 50/50 call.

A shoulder to the head of a laid out WR gets called 100 times out of 100.

I know the exact sequence of events is hard to fathom but in a general sense, if I told you before the game that Burfict and Jones would do something stupid and cost the Bengals the game it would not have been a huge surprise to anyone. The problem for the Bengals ultimately lies with needing two guys of such extreme emotional immaturity to be on the field at a crucial time in a very emotional game.

 

[SEREbuckeye]

You get contact with the crown of the helmet when the defender is actually trying to hit the chest quite a bit. It's a 50/50 call.

A shoulder to the head of a laid out WR gets called 100 times out of 100.

I know the exact sequence of events is hard to fathom but in a general sense, if I told you before the game that Burfict and Jones would do something stupid and cost the Bengals the game it would not have been a huge surprise to anyone. The problem for the Bengals ultimately lies with needing two guys of such extreme emotional immaturity to be on the field at a crucial time in a very emotional game.

I don't deny that Burfict and Jones play with a temper and thug-like behavior at times. That said, anytime you lower your helmet to purposefully tackle another player in lieu of using your arms to form a proper tackle, it needs to be called.

This is the difference between a defender and a ball carrier. A defender has every chance, opportunity, and means to bend at the waist, put his shoulder into the defender and tackle properly (something Shazier was capable of). A running back doesn't have such a capability. His arms are filled with a ball and is trying to avoid a defender.

Besudes, this doesn't look like a guy going after someone's chest (Buckeye or not):

 

[Jaxbuck]

I don't deny that Burfict and Jones play with a temper and thug-like behavior at times. That said, anytime you lower your helmet to purposefully tackle another player in lieu of using your arms to form a proper tackle, it needs to be called.

This is the difference between a defender and a ball carrier. A defender has every chance, opportunity, and means to bend at the waist, put his shoulder into the defender and tackle properly (something Shazier was capable of). A running back doesn't have such a capability. His arms are filled with a ball and is trying to avoid a defender.

Besudes, this doesn't look like a guy going after someone's chest (Buckeye or not):
View attachment 12277

I would have had zero issue with it being called. It's one of those you see any given Sunday go either way.

My question I guess, is what it has to do with the Burfict hit?

Seems like Bengal fans, rightfully still emotional from the loss, are trying to create some kind of argument that Shazier hit no call = no call on Burfict (or going on a BWI-like rant about the game being fixed) and that to me is pretty far from reality.

Burficts type of hit gets called 100 times out of 100. Don't do it and the Bengals likely win although there was still enough time on the clock to hit a pass to set up the FG.

 

[SEREbuckeye]

I would have had zero issue with it being called. It's one of those you see any given Sunday go either way.

My question I guess, is what it has to do with the Burfict hit?

Seems like Bengal fans, rightfully still emotional from the loss, are trying to create some kind of argument that Shazier hit no call = no call on Burfict (or going on a BWI-like rant about the game being fixed) and that to me is pretty far from reality.

Burficts type of hit gets called 100 times out of 100. Don't do it and the Bengals likely win although there was still enough time on the clock to hit a pass to set up the FG.

I think the parallels that are being drawn between the Burfict hit is this:

Burfict hits a receiver with his shoulder to his head = penalty called, resulting in a game changing play

Shazier hits receiver with his head to the opponents head = no penalty called, resulting in a game changing play

I'm merely a casual Bengals fan, not someone emotionally invested into the team. I just love the game of football and hate that the spirit of the rules were lost in that game. It was unnecessary roughness by the letter of the law, and should have been called out of safety alone. Hell, you saw what happened with the emotions after it wasn't called - chaos.

I think both calls needed to be made, especially to retain control of the game.

 

[buckeyesin07]

Without having a dog in the fight it's hard to see. From Keith Gary ripping Ken Andersons head off by his face mask and end zone dancing like a loon (at least this penalty was called) to Heinz Ward crowning Keith Rivers with his helmet and breaking his jaw (no flag) to Kimo with a dirty intentional low blow ripping Palmer's knee (no flag) to an intentional targeting of a punter (broken Jaw, no flag) the Pittsburgh organization is as fucking dirty as they come in any sport but the league does nothing.

Speaking of dirty intentional low blows, didn't Burfict get fined earlier in the season for diving at Roethlisberger's lower legs? That game last night, and the other two between those teams during the regular season, was a charged atmosphere, no doubt. But the notion that the Steelers are as "dirty as the come" and the Bengals are a bunch of choir boys is the most blind homer view I've read in some time.

 

[NJ-Buckeye]

Outrageous game... and maybe the most violent I have ever witnessed
Steelers won but they're done
Ben is done... no way he can move a spoon to his mouth this morning
and Brown almost certainly has a concussion that is not resolving itself in a week
lots of mixed feelings.. despite having no dog in this fight other than hoping OSU players played well

I was half-expecting someone to die.. literally.. and I thought Brown was close

 

[jwinslow]

The difference though is that the defender is actively looking to destroy the ball carrier (regardless of the position). A ball carrier, when he lowers his head and shoulders is usually just for a few extra yards just before getting wrapped up.

I have yet to see a ball carrier purposefully choose a defender, put his eyes on the turf, lower the crown of his helmet, and crash into the facemask/head of that defender.

I've seen it countless times. The difference is that we've been trained to believe that tacklers are never victims, even if their necks are being ripped off with "stiff arms" (aka illegal hands to the face). I've seen lots of ball carriers drop their head and detonate the waiting and largely stationary linebacker, crushing him right under the chin. It's how the game of football is played. Meanwhile if the linebacker hits the ball carrier like that when he's pausing in the hole, he risks a penalty.

Burfict hit with his sholder, it was bad. That said, the Shazier hit was much more dangerous - both for Shazier and Gio. Shazier was purposely gunning the opponent with his head. No different than the hit Bosa was ejected for against ND.

Shazier's was faster. Burfict was driving the player's neck sideways way after the pass was missed in order to enforce his message.

I would not have minded a flag on Shazier but that's a bang bang play and a judgment call on when he turned, whether it's a run of the mill collision. A lot of clean tackles end up that way. There was nothing clean or legal about Burfict's hit. That was blatant.