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Making a Murderer (Netflix)

Discussion in 'Open Discussion (Work-safe)' started by Smudger, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. Smudger

    Smudger #ImYourHuckleberry Staff Member BP Recruiting Team 2x BP FBB Champ '14 NFL Pick'em Champ Former FF The Deuce Champ Former Hockey Champ Former FF Keeper Champ ‘18 Premier League Champ

    THIS deserves its own thread at this point. Already discussed at length in others. Compelling stuff. Not to post any spoilers to those who have not seen this yet, but I have no desire to EVER set foot in the state of Wisconsin again after seeing this. Its like we have an eternal amount of ammo against Wisky fans.
    muffler dragon and SloopyHangOn like this.
  2. OHSportsFan

    OHSportsFan Fan of Ohio Sports in Indy

    My sister just recommended it to me. I usually avoid what "everyone else is watching" but this may be the exception.

    Messed up?
  3. LostLassie

    LostLassie Am I Allowed To Say That? '17 BPCFFB II Champ

    A family friend who's a law student is tearing his hair out watching this. Noticed it's on Netflix. Not my favorite kind of show, but I may have to take a look.
    SloopyHangOn likes this.
  4. leroyjenkins

    leroyjenkins Choose positivity

    I grew up in Manitowoc County. Made it out luckily, lol.
  5. OH10

    OH10 *

    As a lawyer, I can tell you it's fascinating. Many people will draw conclusions based on the presentation (which is very well done) but I'd caution against feeling too strongly one way or another.
  6. OH10

    OH10 *

    Some of my thoughts...

    1. The special prosecutor Kratz committed a blatant and serious ethical violation with his March 1 press conference detailing the Dassey "confession." Wisconsin Rule of Professional Conduct 3.6(a) states: "A lawyer who is participating or has participated in the investigation or litigation of a matter shall not make an extrajudicial statement that the lawyer knows or reasonably should know will be disseminated by means of public communication and will have a substantial likelihood of materially prejudicing an adjudicative proceeding in the matter."

    Clearly his statement at a televised press conference was intended to influence the jury pool and public opinion. He was concerned that Avery's prior exoneration would have potential jurors skeptical and this press conference was designed to eliminate that skepticism. This is very similar to what the Duke Lacrosse DA did in his press conferences. He should have immediately been sanctioned by the appropriate lawyer disciplinary authority and taken off the case.

    Further, his statement and the Dassey "confession" were wholly unsupported by the evidence at the time. If, as Dassey claimed, they raped the victim, stabbed her, cut her throat, and shot her multiple times, her DNA would have been all over the trailer and the garage. The Wolf from Pulp Fiction couldn't have cleaned it up to be undetectable. And yet Kratz would have you believe that somehow this nephew and uncle from the backwoods of Wisconsin were able to completely clear out the scene of her DNA while simultaneously leaving all kinds of evidence everywhere else on the compound (the car, the key, the bullet fragment, the bones, the cellphone, etc.)

    2. When the special prosecutor and the Calumet County Sheriff said in a November press conference that Manitowoc County officials would not be involved in the investigation, THEY SHOULD HAVE MEANT IT. That two officers from Manitowoc County deposed in Avery's civil suit were intimately involved in the search of the property (and personally located multiple pieces of key evidence) is absurd. If you don't want to be accused of planting evidence, then honor the conflict of interest you said you would honor. Kratz and his assistants appeared insulted by the insinuation of planted evidence. It bothered me that it bothered Kratz and his assistants so much. If you don't want them to make the argument, don't allow officers with a clear conflict of interest to search the property. It's not a difficult concept. You had the assistance of the State investigators and the FBI. You didn't need Manitowoc County. So why were they there?

    3. The blood in the back of the RAV4 from Teresa Halbach has my head spinning. If Avery and Dassey kill her in the trailer or the garage, it makes no sense for her blood to be in the back of the car. The burn pit was just a few yards away. It's probably easier to carry her body there than back to the car. There is no question, from that evidence, her body was moved at some point prior to being burned. This tells me she was murdered some distance away from the site and was later transported to whatever location where she was burned. I don't know what that all means but it certainly doesn't fit with Dassey's "confession."

    4. It's still difficult for me to come away thinking Avery is innocent or that Dassey didn't know something. It would have to be one crafty and comprehensive framejob requiring both the real murderer(s) and the police to be involved. But I did come away thinking there was enough reasonable doubt to acquit both. And Dassey's "confession" probably should have been thrown out of his trial, not necessarily because it was coerced, but because it was so unreliable as to render it not probative in the case.

    I have more thoughts, but those are just the initial ones that came to mind.
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2016
  7. WHOA! How about a spoiler alert in a spoiler alert! Wolverine Mike probably hasn't seen pulp fiction!

    As for my thoughts so far:

    I'm only 2 episodes in, but what left me scratching my head is why the hell would a man who knows what going back to prison would he like leave so many bread crumbs to a murder he committed? I won't question him committing the crime, because people do stupid shit. But he must have the car keys in his hand, right? And then decides to lazily toss them next to his bed? Why not toss them in the blazing fire? Or drive miles away and bury them in a ditch? And the car? Isn't his entire life revolved around dealing with cars? Couldn't he have dismantled the car to a state of no recognition? But instead he puts some branches over it, all while leaving a convenient blood sample next to the steering wheel? Huh?

    Also, something that I didn't understand (and they perhaps touch on later) is the dropping of his civil suit for the wrongful imprisonment. It seems to just go away. Now I know you can't compensate on a crime, but it's not illegal to be compensated while being convicted of a crime unrelated to the compensation. And even if he was convicted of murder, was he still not the center of police manipulation costing him 18 years of his life?
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
  8. OH10

    OH10 *

    I think the series definitely raises more questions than answers. It truly is a fascinating case all the way around.
  9. SloopyHangOn

    SloopyHangOn WhoO WhoO WhoO!

    As I've said in other threads...

    ...regardless of what you want to believe about Steven Avery's guilt in regard to being convicted of murder, the biggest tragedy of this whole thing is what the Wisconsin justice department did to Brendan Dassey in order to ensure that they put Steven Avery away for life. They bullied a dumb 16 year old kid into admitting to something entirely made up knowing that he was just trying to "go home" THEN used that statement to further the argument against Steven Avery. He was victimized by his defense attorney who was colluding with the PROSECUTION to get this statement and was denied his first attempt at dismissing this attorney. THEN when the attorney WAS dismissed for being responsible for bringing about this harmful, inadmissible statement the statement itself was allowed to be used... by the PROSECUTION. This kid was put away for life.

    My guess judging from the documentary and the other research I've read about from sources like reddit, 4chan, etc... is that Steven Avery was obsessed with Teresa Halbach to the point where he was almost harassing her. He was a sexual deviant who was into binding and WAS guilty of jerking it outside of his sister's home back in the mid 80's and he probably very likely did a lot of "talking" with the good 'ol boys in his "neighborhood" like the Dassey kids and their step-dad Scott about his sexual fantasies, much like he was reported as doing while he was in prison. He probably did interact much more with Teresa when she came to take the pictures than he admitted to the police knowing any inch would be taken as a mile in order to get him convicted. There could be any number of likely reasons why his skin cells were found underneath the hood of Teresa's car (but nowhere INSIDE of the car) that don't point to murder that would implicate him being way more linked than he was going to admit to being.

    Ultimately, however I don't think he had ANYTHING to do with Teresa's death. The evidence seems to be too sketchy. I don't believe he would "dispose" of her vehicle in HIS car lot, especially right there in the front, on a ridge, "hidden" behind some plywood. The man knew how to use a crusher and had a huge acreage to hide the vehicle. Forensic evidence can only confirm gunshots as the means of Teresa's death, and if she was shot and killed ANYWHERE on Steven's property, not only would he not be able to fully clean up the blood but there would be so much OTHER evidence, of which there was none. The tampering of evidence that was almost undoubtedly done by the Manitowac County PD was heinous: The key (with no DNA on it at all other than Steven Avery's skin cells) that showed up out of the blue 7 months after is almost too obviously a plant. While less clearly a frame job, Steven Avery's blood in the RAV4 and the surrounding testing that was done on it all seem very much like a PD trying to ensure the conviction of a guy they believed to be guilty. Besides that, if SA was capable of cleaning up so much blood from everywhere else, why the hell would he not even try wiping down what seemed to be some VERY obvious blood stains on the VICTIM's car?

    The statements from Officer Buzzcut (Colburn) and Detective James Lenk were both wildly inconsistent on so many very key pieces of information that could very easily implicate them of being involved with some very shady things. Not to mention the constant involvement from the whole Manitowac Co PD in processing, testing and documenting of evidence. Just too much opportunity and no accountability.

    My theory on the whole matter is that the Dassey boys and their step-father Scott had conversations with Steve about Teresa, who Steve had been trying to get to come to the property for a long time. After Steve's interaction with Teresa, and her taking pictures of the van that was being sold, she either ran into Scott who had apparently just returned from a hunting trip or Bobby who was apparently on his way out for a hunting trip as she was leaving the property. Teresa, who was already freaked out by her inevitably uncomfortable meeting with Steven, said or did something that Scott (who has a convincingly relevant history of violent crimes) or Bobby took offense to. One of them incapacitated her and threw her in the back of her RAV4 (where the blood patterns indicate bloody hair was laid). One then gets the other involved if he wasn't already and the two of them drive to a secluded area (the quarry a few miles outside of the Avery property where bones were found) one in the RAV4 and the other in another vehicle. There she was shot (both "going hunting" around that time indicates them having their guns with them) before her body is then burned. They then abandon the body in the quarry and the RAV4. Their alibi for that time period is held up solely by each other's testimony and is directly refuted by the bus driver that dropped Brendan off AFTER Teresa's meeting with Steve took place. Bobby even asserts that Scott will know precisely what time they saw each other "passing one another on the highway", but neither provide any way to prove their alibis.

    This is where shit gets weird. I think the police find the RAV4, either at the quarry or elsewhere. They run the plates, figure out that it belongs to missing person Teresa Halbach, investigate briefly and discover a burned body in the quarry. This happens a few days before the search party that "found" the RAV4 in the Avery yard as supported by Andrew Colburn's testimony that the plates were run before the vehicle was officially "found". During this time there is a large investigation going on at the Avery residence where nothing has been found connecting him to the crime while Avery is away at a family member's home. Colburn who has found the vehicle and the body then gets others within the Manitowac PD involved who are just SURE that Steven Avery did this, so they make sure that what they find matches their guy in a way that makes sure this case will be open/shut. Lenk, who knows that Avery's blood is on file in evidence obtains some and then either plants it himself or has Colburn plant it on the vehicle. They then move the vehicle to the Avery residence, probably in the middle of the night, and place it where it appears to be "hidden", but in reality can still very easily be found. They also obtain a burn barrel from the property, return to the quarry where they attempt to transport ALL of Teresa's remains (but only collect MOST of them) to the fire pit where they KNOW Avery had a fire the night of Teresa's disappearance (one that they also know he originally tried to deny having) and bury them in with the rest of the burnt materials. Then they wait. It's inevitable that someone eventually find the vehicle (but they know it can't be them) and that once they do they can run tests on the blood (which they know is Steven Avery's), they can search the burn pit and find the body 30 yards from where the main suspect sleeps and wham, bam, thank you ma'am it's case closed. They were not suspecting however that it wouldn't be so cut and dry and that they would have to plant further evidence down the road as they either found or created it in order to make the whole thing stick.

    See... The Manitowac PD didn't "frame" Steven Avery, they simply made sure that THIS TIME there was no doubt that he did the crime, much like they tried to do the first go around. After all, most of them firmly believed that even though DNA evidence exonerated him from the crime he spent 18 years in jail for, he was still guilty of it. Whether that be a misunderstanding of DNA evidence, a willful ignorance to the other circumstantial evidence, or any other number of reasons... they simply believe that a violent felon that they simply did not like was released from prison unjustly and they were going to correct that mistake.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2016
    MD Buckeye and leroyjenkins like this.
  10. WolverineMike

    WolverineMike Senior

    I wouldn't go that far...... :lol:
    UpNorth_Buckeye likes this.
  11. OH10

    OH10 *

    My theory:

    Avery is guilty. I would have voted against conviction on the jury because of reasonable doubt but the vast majority of reliable evidence still points to him. Let's assume the key, the blood in the car, the DNA under the hood of the car, and the bullet in the garage were all planted by the police, which are still assumptions which cannot be proven. He's still the prime suspect. He called the victim to his trailer the day she went missing. This is a fact. He specifically requested her. He used *67 to call her multiple times that same day to hide his number. The victim reported to her superiors that she didn't want to go back there (probably because the family is a little creepy and the location a little too remote). He had greater opportunity to commit the murder than anybody else you could possibly consider a suspect. His girlfriend is in jail for DUI. He has sexual fetishes (consider the handcuffs, etc. they did find in this home, though they had no DNA from the victim). The victim was an attractive young female. The motive is obvious. But he can't rape her in the trailer. Too many family members who come by frequently. It's not likely he'd be able to get away with it. So he knocks her out, puts her in the back of the RAV4 and drives her off into the woods where he rapes her. He then shoots her with his gun in the head, killing her. He transports her body back to the property where he plans to burn her behind the trailer. He invites his nephew over but doesn't tell him what's in the fire. Dassey figures it out anyway, not necessarily right away, but when reports of the girl missing come out. Avery is confident they can't come after him again. He feels invincible. He's the poster child for police overreach and exonerated individuals. So he doesn't crush the RAV4. He keeps it for scrap, thinking he can still sell it. He hides the car and thinks no one will be able to find it in that big junkyard. For this, he is an idiot but I think most of us can tell he's not particularly intelligent. He thinks he's burned the remains beyond recognition and he thinks he's in the clear. And he might have been if he had just crushed the RAV4 like many people assume he should have. But he didn't. And now law enforcement, who probably already had him as their prime suspect (and why not?) are all over him. They know the public will be skeptical because of the exoneration. So Lenk (and maybe Colburn) plant some evidence to lock down the conviction. They're still unsure of a conviction. The detectives know someone in that family has to know something so they lean on the easiest one (Dassey) until he finally breaks and gives them what they want. But they also know he won't necessarily testify against his uncle, which would make his statement inadmissible against Avery. Thus, the press conference designed to taint the jury pool. And it worked. Avery is in prison. Dassey is probably an innocent pawn, but the police don't care because he's a simpleton anyway and they needed their man.
  12. Bucky32

    Bucky32 Senior

    Obviously, I have always felt terrible for the Halbach family, but I have always had my suspicions on whether or not Avery did this. Being from Wisconsin, I have always been 50/50 at best. I don't know if the documentary changed my thinking, but it did seem to confirm some of the things I have heard about the Manitowoc County Law Enforcement over the last 20 years.
    RB07OSU, muffler dragon and OH10 like this.
  13. SloopyHangOn

    SloopyHangOn WhoO WhoO WhoO!

    I could buy that theory...

    Either way, though:
    When the police fuck up an innocent boys life, as well as his immediate families' lives, all to further the conspiracy to nail down a suspect... that's entirely inexcusable and will likely never be investigated further... and that's a damn shame.
  14. OH10

    OH10 *

    I agree. I think the great shame (besides the obvious loss of a young woman's life) is that the Manitowoc County officials who were responsible for Avery's first 18 unjustified years in prison got a clean slate. And that nobody seems to accept any responsibility for the total unmitigated fuck up of allowing Lenk and Colburn to be involved in the search of the property just weeks after being deposed in Avery's lawsuit. There's no documentary and no controversy if they had stayed off the property like they were to supposed to do.

    It also bothers me a great deal that Ken Kratz wasn't suspended by the Wisconsin Supreme Court for acting intentionally to deprive a man of his constitutional right to a fair and impartial jury.
  15. What are your thoughts on the human remains consistent with the bones in his backyard being found way off site? Why would he either A) burn the body off site and transport it to his house, or B) burn it at his house and transport few remains away.

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