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Making a Murderer (Netflix)

Discussion in 'Open Discussion (Work-safe)' started by Smudger, Jan 3, 2016.

  1. Buckeye86

    Buckeye86 I do not choose to discuss it

    I find official rebuttals like this one exceedingly unconvincing.

    One thing they never address:

    Regardless of whether blood was planted in the vehicle or not, and the FBI testimony was far from convincing much less definitive, why was the blood vile tampered with?

    Can we just explore that as a completely seperate issue- is there any alternative reasonable explanation why the vile was in the condition it was in?

    There are dozens of questions raised in the series and half assed rebuttals like the one above don't even come close to adequately addressing them.

    Cousin/brother Bobby and the creepy husband who said it was the greatest thing in the world when Steven was convicted are the actual killers (the roommate leading the search was also painted as highly suspicious).

    Bobby's story about watching out the window is clearly bullshit based on the bus drivers testimony and the timing, and their mutually exclusive alibi of passing each other on the road on their way to go hunting is highly suspect to say the least and a crazy convenient way to explain their absence for several hours.

    They also make a point of highlighting that Bobby's car was missing from the scene shortly after the victim left according to Steven in his police interrogation immediately after he was first taken into custody.

    So Bobby and creepy husband follow her as she leaves the property, one thing leads to another and they burn her body (possibly at the third location where bones were found) before bringing the remains back in the barrel to dump right outside Steven's bedroom window.

    While I don't know how the RAV4 fits into the timeline, it does seem likely the one crooked cop found it when he mysteriously called in the license plate (something you can instantly memorize I'm sure) on a whim and off handedly mentioned the model as well.

    There were several days between that call being made (he found the car) and it being discovered in the junk yard. That gave them plenty of time to tamper with it even without worrying about logging in and out of the scene after it had been found.

    Maybe the cops found the RAV4 offsite or Bobby and the creepy husband stashed it after dumping the body.

    Regardless, even if Steven did commit the crime, he shouldn't have been convicted based on the case against him.

    The strongest evidence against him was the DNA in the car, which as many others have pointed out, why would he have even been messing around with the body in it if the murder, shooting and burning all took place in essentially the same location- with no proof (blood, DNA) that it actually did take place there.

    Finally, the way Brendan was treated by the police and the prosecutors truly made you sick to your stomach. His conviction was an even bigger travesty.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  2. BuckeyeNation27

    BuckeyeNation27 Goal Goal USA! Staff Member

    Another tangent that I found odd...
    When they played 3 hours of the Dassey confession....why did the defense agree to not finish the rest of the tape, where he a) asks if he'll be back in school by 6th period or b) tells his mom he just confessed to some shit because the cops got to him?
    muffler dragon likes this.
  3. Buckeye86

    Buckeye86 I do not choose to discuss it

    Or more broadly, how could anyone in their right mind watch any portion of that tape and come to any conclusion other than the kid had no clue what was going on and the "damning" details were entirely coerced.

    The fact that tape made it through several layers of judges and appeals without receiving further review is pure insanity in my view.

    Also the prosecutors incredulously asking Dassey how he could just make up the images he claimed to see and duplicate in his "confession" when they have, on tape, the investigator telling him exactly what to draw (her being tied to the bed) after he repeatedly said nothing happened.

    And this too didn't warrant reopening the case according to the legal reviews.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  4. BayBuck

    BayBuck Buckeyes are best

    Just finished the series. Fuck. Fuck!
    muffler dragon likes this.
  5. LovelandBuckeye

    LovelandBuckeye You never lose to those pricks. Ever. Ever. - UFM

    Wisconsin, man.
  6. Buckeye86

    Buckeye86 I do not choose to discuss it

    The judge who presided over the initial trial being the one who determines whether or not a second trial is warranted seems like a terrible system--- I'm sure admitting mistakes is something judges are really enthusiastic about doing--- is that a Wisconsin thing or is that standard operating procedure nationwide?

    @OH10 @Buckeyeskickbuttocks
    Poe McKnoe likes this.
  7. Buckeyeskickbuttocks

    Buckeyeskickbuttocks Z --> Z^2 + c Staff Member

    I don't practice criminal law, so I can't say for certain whether such a matter is heard before the presiding trial judge or not.

    I did binge watch Making a Murderer this weekend.... many comments to follow....
    SloopyHangOn and BuckeyeNation27 like this.
  8. Buckeyeskickbuttocks

    Buckeyeskickbuttocks Z --> Z^2 + c Staff Member

    It strikes me, of the entire Avery clan the only two who don't seem to support Steve are Scott Tadych and Bobby Dassey. In line with... I think it was OH1O's theory... I think they did it and framed Steve for it when disposing of the body. That said, I also think evidence was planted.

    Brendan's story, as coerced by the cops, simply does not match up with any of the physical evidence. Where's the bloody bed? Where's the knife? The rope? The chains? If she was stabbed and had her throat cut in the trailer, why is her blood in the back of the RAV4 when she was shot, apparently, in the garage and the burn pit was literally right there. I mean... what is the story here? Dassey and Avery rape, stab, and slash her throat. They drag her to the garage and shoot her in the head twice. They put her in the RAV and go for a quick spin and then throw her on the burn pit?

    These two are sophisticated enough to completely clean the scene getting rid of all the blood - to the point that even cracks in the concrete showed no evidence of blood.. and yet, they forget to wash down the RAV? They don't burn or otherwise destroy it - despite having the means to do so?

    In any event, I've started and then deleted many attempts to outline my thoughts on the Dassey prosecution... With the exception of Halbach's murder, his treatment is the most disturbing part of this to the point that I cannot even seem to form cohesive sentences to describe my .... outrage is maybe too strong... but.. outrage.
  9. BayBuck

    BayBuck Buckeyes are best

    That seemed the most likely alternative theory to me as well. They were both RIGHT THERE at the key time, are each other's only alibi, and were proven to be at least inconsistent in their statements. And the cops planting evidence comes later, "tunnel vision" and all that.

    Apparently Steven also suggested his two brothers as possible suspects in a court filing from 2009, which may have just been a desperation move, but it always struck me as possible some other Avery character(s) simply seized the moment with a vulnerable young women right there for the taking, and Manitowoc did the rest.

    I think of all the bad guys (The State), Sgt. Colborn is probably the most punchable -- how infuriating is it to see him still right there, escorting Steven/Brendan around, all those years later? He's right behind Brendan smiling smugly when his murder verdict comes down. Fuck that guy.
  10. Buckeyeskickbuttocks

    Buckeyeskickbuttocks Z --> Z^2 + c Staff Member

    How about the ex-boy friend and the brother. Ex BF seems especially sketchy. There's not a whole lot to go on in consideration of his role, but just why in the hell is try to hack her cell and deleting messages?

    The brother also struck me as a bit strange, but as he lost his sister I gave him some benefit of the doubt owing to the emotional trauma. When he said that the 13 year old cousin (during the Dassey trial) "chose to lie" it was quite a bit of a "huh?" moment. I find it very hard to believe that girls was perpetrating a lie on behalf of her family. She struck me as sincere and... kids DO make shit up. In this same respect, I have to say, Dassey's testimony also struck me as truthful. He never stumbled, and I am not sure that he possesses the wits to keep his lie straight, if it were a lie. No. I believe he was telling the truth a trial. Mike (the brother) actually looks somewhat defeated in his interview after Dassey's testimony, and unsurprisingly calls Dassey a liar as well. As I just explained, I didn't see a liar up there on that stand. Though, my earlier caveat about emotional trauma notwithstanding, he also doesn't necessarily behave emotionally as one might expect.

    But, I think I'm more inclined to believe something like this, with regard to Ex and Mike...

    @BayBuck 's favorite Deputy Andy Colborn is out conducting an unlawful search of the junk yard. He comes across the RAV4 and makes the call to the operator confirming he's just found the right vehicle. Of course, he can't be there without a warrant so he has to wait for someone to find it. Enter the citizen search committee headed up by the Ex and Mike ... enter also Pam who relies on divine intervention (A better answer to "That was pretty lucky" would have been, "Yeah, I suppose so considering how many cars were there") to find the car. Why did Pam essentially go right to the car? Because Colborn told her where it was. Ex and Mike may have known that was the case (remember the jittery interview about having permission to go on the property and what not?) I don't know if the plates were on the car when Pam finds it, so if they're not, they must have been removed by Colburn and tossed in some random junker - which would, of course, lend credence to the future testimony (if needed) that he couldn't have been looking at the plates as they weren't on the car when it was found.

    Speaking of the car.... we know they found Halbach's key magically under slippers after 6 prior searches of Avery's room. Setting aside the evidence of police incompetence in that fact alone - and ignoring that it was most likely planted for the moment.... the key was the only key on the key ring... no house key... nothing... that seems unusual and I think it was her spare key, obtained by someone (Colburn, Lenk) possibly thru Ex BF or Mike. The fact that even Halbach's DNA was not on that key is preposterous.

    Same thing with the bullet in the garage... Granted, that was quite a messy garage (Where's the close impact splatter on those materials?) but... odd timing of the finding of that bullet despite several prior searches, though, not something that Ex or Mike could have had any role in, I don't believe. (Which is to say, they're role in the investigatory phase had concluded). Apparently Avery's DNA wasn't on the bullet, though I don't know if DNA from physically loading the bullet into the weapon would survive its being fired.

    Scott and Bobby... Suppose they, or even just Scott or Bobby, decide they want Steve gone (Again, they clearly don't like Steve for whatever reasons). They know rape and murder on the property and he's the prime suspect. They call Halbach, pretending to be Steve. Use *67 even... set up a meeting for the van BARB was trying to have sold (that is, Girl Friend and Mom of Scott and Bobby). She comes out, takes her pictures and is seen by the bus driver. As she's leaving, she's met by one or both, hit upside the head with a blunt object, and with a bloody haired head, thrown into the back of the RAV, and they head off to the quarry. There she is raped perhaps, but most certainly finally killed by gunshots. She's set on fire there at the quarry. (Remember there were bones there too) Well, she doesn't burn up all the way. Off they go to get the burn barrel, and they light her up again. Satisfied in their work, they end up dumping the remains on Avery's burn pit.

    This explains why there is NO EVIDENCE supporting the prosecution's theory of the crime and does not require Avery or Dassey to be incredibly good cleaners.

    Again... the no evidence thing just makes me pissed off for Brendan Dassey. "Let me get this straight, Detective, just a few weeks ago a trial ended where great pains were taken to establish the validity of the evidence as it concerned Steve Avery. Yet, despite upwards of 8 searches of the property... you didn't find Brendan's DNA.. his hair.. his semen on the bed... nothing. Can you explain that to me?"
  11. Buckeye86

    Buckeye86 I do not choose to discuss it

    The lead prosecutor's refutation is also highly unconvincing...

    They were at his home for eight straight days, I'm sure they could have found something to plant his DNA under the hood... and why blood and sweat but no fingerprints anywhere?

    I wonder if those two people were Bobby and the creepy husband? That would be insanely coincidental if so.

    Yes, because jail house confessions are always 100% accurate and crooked cops have never leaned on desperate inmates to give damning false testimony with the promise of helping them out.

    And with his bullshit closing argument claim that if you believed the doubt the defense was trying to cast over the investigation, you had to believe the crooked police committed the murder themselves?

    Fuck this guy.

    Oh, and how in the hell does Dassey get convicted for mutilating the body but Avery doesn't? It's a minor point in the grand scheme of things but highlights how stupidly and irrationally inconsistent the judicial system can be.
  12. BayBuck

    BayBuck Buckeyes are best

    That, and Brendan's conviction on the sexual-assault charge really shows how both the prosecution and the jury relied absolutely on his confession story. As BKB asked, where is a single shred of physical evidence corroborating the story of tying up, raping, torturing, moving, killing and burning of Halbach? How about some marks on the bedposts from the ropes and chains? I suppose the entire mattress was destroyed and replaced? And then of course they shoot her point-blank in a messy garage without a trace of blood spatter? But then of course, Steven got his charges stemming from Brendan's story dismissed, for being pure fantasy.
  13. scarletmike

    scarletmike Researching the Magic!

    I'm watching episode 4 right now, and I'm wondering if keeping the Manitowoc Sheriff's Dept. from the trial wasn't a double edged sword

    EDIT: And then at the end Steven's blood sample container was clearly accessed sloppily. I can't imagine being able to overlook that very, very huge issue for the prosecution. Combine that with the key not being found until search like 7, and by the way, it was Lenk who found it...I don't think I could look at this as a juror and say there's no reasonable doubt considering 1985 and the current Sheriff's own statements about Avery.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
  14. Jaxbuck

    Jaxbuck I hate tsun ‘18 Fantasy Baseball Champ

    So I take it this series isn't about Brian Kelly's early coaching career?

    (I am sooooo out of touch with popular culture)
  15. Buckeye86

    Buckeye86 I do not choose to discuss it

    In addition to the pretty easily explainable/refutable additional evidence that Avery was guilty Prosecutor Kratz says was left out of the documentary, here's a list of additional evidence left out from the defense:

    Also, I'm no expert but it seems to me there is no way a back yard fire could incinerate a body the way it was, in addition to the fact that the smell from such a burning would be incredibly noticeable in a place right next to people's houses. The Dassey mother was apparently at the house a few hundred feet away right after the event was supposed to have taken place at five when she talked to her son (based on her talking to Brendan and being incredulous he didn't say anything to her at the time, she would have driven him away to protect him if he had said anything, according to their phone call).

    Brendan was able to instantly clean himself up before talking to his mother that day? Brendan didn't have blood on his clothes? Did he change clothes? When? How did he get rid of his original bloody clothes? Did he commit the gruesome crime he described without getting blood on his clothes?

    Okay, so I found this timeline of events from the day in question. It seems like people, Dassey's mother at the very least, were right next door at the time or shortly after the burning was supposed to have taken place as well.

    I'm really curious to see what the prosecutions proposed timeline of events for the murder is, where all of this happened, including the incredibly thorough cleanup of the crime scene and burning of a body, within a few hundred feet of other people (Tadych saw the fire at around 8:45, apparently, but has two recollections of how big it was- and I assume he's the one who saw Avery dumping the purse in the burn barrel) without people noticing suspicious activity.

    Also, there was no DNA in the trailer that placed Brendan there at all, of course.

    Bobby and Tadych were perfectly willing to give incriminating testimony about all these things.

    Maybe they did? I assume the lack of people noticing anything amiss was explained away by the prosecution as the Avery's protecting their own.

    It would be helpful to see a timeline of the testimony that was given with a timeline of where everyone was supposed to have been that night with a timeline of exactly how and when the prosecution claims the murder took place.

    And a Reddit thread on the alternative explanations that were not permitted to be discussed in court, which seems like utter bullshit to me in a case where the police did absolutely no investigation into anyone other than Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey.

    I'm still trying to determine the two witnesses who claimed they saw Steven Avery throwing the victims things into a burn barrel, because if it was Bobby Dassey and Scott Tadych that would be too much.

    None of these things are actually in the show, so no spoilers I don't think.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016

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