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Observations from the Barcalounger - Michigan State 2004

Discussion in 'Buckeye Football' started by Oh8ch, Nov 6, 2004.

  1. PRBuck1

    PRBuck1 Newbie

    OSUGrad21, I meant to address it to OH8IO, who started the thread and asked about TOP in his original post. I confused you with him. My bad.
  2. osugrad21

    osugrad21 Capo Regime Staff Member

    I thought that was every night??
  3. kn1f3party

    kn1f3party Junior

    Turano needs to play safety. He is a real football player--any punter that tackles like that is.

    *edit* I'm joking!
  4. jwinslow

    jwinslow A MAN OF BETRAYED JUSTICE Staff Member Tourney Pick'em Champ

    Is there a way we can have an obligatory head smacking for anyone who thinks the production of Smith and Zwick have been identical? I think there are many things Smith needs to improve: not pulling it down too soon, not locking on to Ginn, etc. But he simply has not turned the ball over in three weeks, and brings an excitement and hope when we face 3rd and long (which thanks to our undisciplined line is a regularity after getting penalized constantly). Many times this year everyone ahs been covered and his fleet feet have brought us TDs.

    Also, while there were overthrows for Smith in every game, so were there overthrows for Zwick. Also, in each of the last two games there have been huge drops by the receivers. Roy Hall had one on the left sideline last game that should have been caught, and Gonzalez should have caught that bomb from Smith today.

    You can't say the fire and excitement of the OSU team was the same when Zwick was in there. Yes they went through some tough teams, but PSU and MSU have put up good defensive games (MSU held UM to almost nothing for 3+ quarters). Zwick has the potential to be a great passer, and I think he could develop to be a great QB for OSU if we have a big running back next year (whether that's a recruit or improvement by Haw/Pittman). But without a strong running game, Smith has to be the answer.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2007
  5. Clarity

    Clarity Will Bryant Staff Member

    There it is again. Just don't understand the fascination with that. It's a key stat in terms of wins and losses, but not (in my opinion) with Smith vs. Zwick. Both players threw a few boneheaded passes, the only difference is in Smith's case, those plays haven't been taken advantage of by the defense. Is Smith hitting a LB (Herron) right on the numbers with a piss-poor pass, evidence of a clear leap over the INTs Zwick had when the ball was tipped by a receiver and fell to a defender? That's an intentionally off balance comparison, but for the sake of pointing out how what's behind the numbers mean more when comparing QBs than the numbers themselves. It's more about looking at the individual plays, where the balls went and why. 0 is misleading in Troy's favor. While 5 probably is more or representative of Zwick's play, give or take a ball. So while someone could reasonably say "Smith has probably only thrown 3 likely picks, and Zwick has thrown more like 6-8", that statement carries some weight, but nothing like "Smith has thrown NO picks and Zwick threw 5!"

    Doing that is sort of selective presentation of the facts, in a meaningless way, to present a skewed point.

    There are plenty of reasons to be behind Smith as the starter at present, I just don't think reads and ball protection are the ones that should top the list.
  6. jwinslow

    jwinslow A MAN OF BETRAYED JUSTICE Staff Member Tourney Pick'em Champ

    I think you are right in your rebuttal, however there were bad passes that Zwick threw that should have been picked off. Basically, I think it comes down to the word turnovers vs. interceptions. I think Zwick played better defenses and had less help offensively to balance his passing game, and so he only did a slightly worse job than Smith in terms of reads. But Smith has run the ball a truckload of times and not coughed it up once. So while he pulls it down too early at times, he is scrambling for 5-15 more yards during 3rd and long, whereas Zwick would have to try and force something or be forced to punt.

    So I think Smith has done a slightly better job at making reads, tho he has not had as many attempts to mess up (and over 1/3 of his passes came against Indiana). But the turnover statistic is much like Krenzel. There were tons of times were people would call for McMullen (who I still wish had another year to play, moreso for his sake, he would have easily been a Jeff Smoker if given the chance), yet Krenzel would continuously make scrambling first downs and not yield many TO's.

    So I think it is more about the overall TO ratio rather than just the INT's. But I definitely see your point.
  7. DiHard

    DiHard Guest

    you want to slap me upside the head????
  8. PRBuck1

    PRBuck1 Newbie

    It seems to me that the offense is responding much better to Troy than they did to JZ. The backs seem to be running much harder. There has been a marked improvement in the O-line. I know some of this is natural improvement of young players, but I really think Troy is part of the reason. I thought he did a fabulous job on the winning drive: perfect strike to Ginn on the winning slant. By the way, his throw to Holmes near or out of the end zone was a great throw.
  9. jwinslow

    jwinslow A MAN OF BETRAYED JUSTICE Staff Member Tourney Pick'em Champ

    Only if I get smacked in the head every time I say something dumb (which is frequent, see BuckeyeNation squabble earlier :)).

    No, I just don't see how the Zwick-Smith production is comparable. I think it is arguable to say that Zwick could win as well as Smith, but I think Smith has done a good job and Zwick had tons of bad days.

    I think there are circumstances surrounding both players that will not guarantee either player a starting position next year (unless Smith plays lights out and wins the next two games). I just don't see Zwick keeping up with Smith productionwise (largely because Smith has only faced one true test, today).
  10. Clarity

    Clarity Will Bryant Staff Member

    I agree with all of that. I just cringe when it seems like someone uses the 0 TOs as a catch-all, when it's really not. Which isn't necessarily what you were doing, just addressing it in general.

    But certainly it's meaningful on some levels, and I would absolutely agree that Smith does have an edge on Zwick's early play there.

    Agreed that the games with Smith behind the wheel have shown something that the last 3 with Justin did. No one should confuse my comments as being suggestive that I think there's no difference between the two QBs. I think Smith should be starter right now, and that he should start next week as well. He's earned it, and hasn't done anything to lose it. And he's showing some progression, I'm not sure Justin was towards the end there. Ultimately, I think this situation could be a real positive for both QBs.
  11. DiHard

    DiHard Guest

    and i say there are also many other things that have come together to make it easier for smith......

    pittman, hall, johnson, joe, rehring, GINN, barton, lyons and gonzales......thats nine real players on offense that were not available to zwick....

    dont forget that fox was down during the losing streak on the defense....

    that being said....comparing the two you pointless..

    anyone find it interesting that the bucks sucked without fox and now are winning with him on the field???
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2004
  12. PRBuck1

    PRBuck1 Newbie

    Good point. He seems to show great leadership. I thought the secondary performed well today. Is it my imagination, or are opponents throwing away from Fox?
  13. DiHard

    DiHard Guest

    it is a combo of leadership and talent.....without fox....teams could stay away from the bucks have two corners who can flat out cover and tackle....

    i thought the secondary played great considering both starting safeties were out....

    injuries are a major factor in the buckeyes play this 2002 and 2003 the injuries were limited.....unfortunately, some years they are all over the place....combine that with youth and an eight win season would be phenomenal....
  14. brutus2002

    brutus2002 Junior

    MOST OF ZWICKS INTERCEPTIONS WERE JUST STUPID PASSES. It would not have mattered who was playing he just made bad decisions. Zwick is a great example of inconsistency. He either looks like the best things since sliced bread or shit. He had 6 games to improve but did not progress throughout the season.
  15. DiHard

    DiHard Guest

    ding..ding...ding....we have found our new offensive coordiantor......ladies and gents i present to you brutus2002..... :slappy: :slappy: :slappy:

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