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Oklahoma DT Dusty Dvoracek

This nation is crippled with passing the buck. We constantly look for excuses to blame for all of our problems. That being said, that does not mean that alcoholism, adhd, and depression (all of which are constantly misdiagnosed and used as an excuse) do not exist. I have ADD (not the Hyperactive part, so you'd never guess it), and I simply cannot succeed in school without medication. Now on medication I'm not suddenly a good student, it still requires changing my behavior and keeping my life structured. You cannot dismiss something as a whiner's disorder simply because many abuse the disorder and are misdiagnosed with it.

The thing I would say is that this guy clearly needs some help, regardless of what exactly his condition is. Now I think he deserves medical help, but not necesarily eligibility. There are plenty of players who probably faltered after suffering with severe depression that will not be granted extra eligibility, whereas this criminal who is a monster when drunk will get to be on campus again.
 
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souL said:
I said they made a choice to quit. How was I wrong? Of course there were REASONS they made a choice, but I didn't have to go into them. When did I say their lives were peaches and cream? Secondly, how do you know about them at all? Fuck, don't post if all you're going to do is make assumptions. Stop being a myopic assclown.
That is total hypocrisy. You cannot tell me that I am looking at just one thing when I think it is the meat of your argument. Not sure who is being the myopic assclown here.
You do have to go into the reasons if you are going to make a statement like that. You cannot say that folks just change with out giving the reasons why they did so. It makes what this kid might be going through just like not sleeping late or getting better grades.
Peoples stories are all similar. I do not have to know their name to know what they have gone through. Change the names and the stories are just about the same, just differences in degrees.
I actually have come 180 deg on some of this stuff. I used to look at fat people and think why don't they just stop eating, work out? I am not sure it is that easy. Some people are just genetically pre determined to be fat. It isn't their fault. It isn't like they want to be that way. This is the type of thinking that the Christian conservatives have with gays. No way that most gays want that life style by choice. Sure there are some that go there for other reasons. They are born that way, they are not going to change.
I also 100% agree that you are responsible for your actions and must pay the price if you fuck up. If this kid has other legal issues, he needs to make it right. If that means going to jail, go to jail. Restitution is part of the process. Just because you have issues does not make you accountable for your actions.
Point is, it is not as simple as just being a man and quitting as Tibor wrote.
 
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Dude for real... you guys are seriously all sitting here calling alcoholism a disease...

I don't give a crap what all these retards in the world think, but YOU picked up the beer can and YOU decided it was what you wanted... that's not a disease when you agreed to it.. Secondly, is alcoholism an addiction or a disease? From what I understand, cirosis is a disease, while the addiction of alcohol could be the cause...

Sounds to me like people are just trying to get more money because they feel sorry for themselves. An addiction and a disease are two different things.. next thing you know .. "Dude it wasn't my fault, I have Cocainism Disease.."
 
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Two different issues here Lloyd.
1) For those with the bug, it isn't a choice. It is what it is.
2) It is always their fault. They did it, so they take the blame and the punishment.

LloydSev said:
Dude for real... you guys are seriously all sitting here calling alcoholism a disease...

I don't give a crap what all these retards in the world think, but YOU picked up the beer can and YOU decided it was what you wanted... that's not a disease when you agreed to it.. Secondly, is alcoholism an addiction or a disease? From what I understand, cirosis is a disease, while the addiction of alcohol could be the cause...

Sounds to me like people are just trying to get more money because they feel sorry for themselves. An addiction and a disease are two different things.. next thing you know .. "Dude it wasn't my fault, I have Cocainism Disease.."
 
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Folanator said:
That is total hypocrisy. You cannot tell me that I am looking at just one thing when I think it is the meat of your argument. Not sure who is being the myopic assclown here.
What are you talking about? I made a statement without going into some half-page diatribe, I was letting people fill in the blanks. I let you assume that because they had alcoholism that their lives were already shitty. Good thing you couldn't read between the lines and jumped up and attacked me. Self-imposed myopia. WAKE UP AND STOP ASSUMING THINGS.

You want a diatribe? You got it.

You do have to go into the reasons if you are going to make a statement like that. You cannot say that folks just change with out giving the reasons why they did so.
No I don't. Mark Twain said it best in What Is Man, when the Old Man tells the Young Man, "Yes. Man the machine--man the impersonal engine. Whatsoever a man is, is due to his MAKE, and to the INFLUENCES brought to bear upon it by his heredities, his habitat, his associations. He is moved, directed, COMMANDED, by EXTERIOR influences--SOLELY. He ORIGINATES nothing, not even a thought."
Being said that people CANNOT change without exterior influences, it is reasonable for any human capable of decutive reasoning should be able to infer that SOMETHING made them change. Anyone without a sense of deduction (such as yourself, apparently) could just ask. (I realize this is a belief, again I give people to much credit in being able to read between the lines).
I actually have come 180 deg on some of this stuff. I used to look at fat people and think why don't they just stop eating, work out? I am not sure it is that easy. Some people are just genetically pre determined to be fat. It isn't their fault. It isn't like they want to be that way.
Obesity and Alcoholism are two totally different topics. Obesity cannot be avoided in some people's cases. Alcoholism is completely, 100% avoidable. I realize that the ability to avoid something doesn't classify it as a disease, but Oklahoma University is taking the burden responsiblity off of the shoulders of this young man, something I feel very strongly against. So you develop some sort of chemical dependency on alcohol, so? I have the same problem with caffiene. It happens with much weaker and much stronger drugs, but there's no seperate 'disease' for coke, heroin, meth, etc. Chemical dependency /= disease.

This is the type of thinking that the Christian conservatives have with gays. No way that most gays want that life style by choice. Sure there are some that go there for other reasons. They are born that way, they are not going to change.
A whole different issue I've never considered enough so I will not broach. I will, however, say this: if obesity, alcoholism, and homosexuality all deal with chemical imbalances, then America's chemical structure is spiraling out of control :roll2:.
I also 100% agree that you are responsible for your actions and must pay the price if you fuck up. If this kid has other legal issues, he needs to make it right. If that means going to jail, go to jail. Restitution is part of the process. Just because you have issues does not make you accountable for your actions.
Point is, it is not as simple as just being a man and quitting as Tibor wrote.
How sure are you? It's the same thing for many many smokers, "I just said, I am not going to smoke any more, so I didn't." I question the validity of that. In the 70s, when you wanted to quit drinking, you just did.
 
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The argument you're about to receive is not about alcoholism, but it pertains to the attitude I'm seeing in this thread towards suspect disorders.

How many of you have experienced clinical depression? I have, along with ADD (as ADD often leads to depression). I was not as severely depressed as my mother (who is one of the most exhuberant positive people I know, yet while depressed she could barely even function enough to motivate herself to eat, drink and do other mundane tasks), but I've been in the pits of depression well enough to know how valid a disorder it is and how impossible it can be to escape it.

In terms of ADD: I didn't choose to be the way I was, and I certainly could not decide one day to quit (that premise is about as absurd as any I've ever heard about ADD). I actually did worse when I concentrated harder on my studies. There are studies done showing that many kids that legitimately have ADD (as opposed to teh doctor's looking to make a quick buck, quick fix, or both that overprescribe the disorder and decimate it's validity) actually perform worse when concentrating. I can go find my ADD book and scan the pictures for you but here's how it goes (they track the movement of a substance thru your brain to measure brain productivity).

1) Normal brain activity - gaps in brain productivity similar to those who are fairly drunk.
2) Concentrating brain activity - similar to a crack-cocaine addict
3) On medication activity - still not normal, but much closer with much fewer gaps in brain productivity

The point is people with ADD, along with those who are depressed get berated constantly for not trying hard enough or using their disorder as a copout. While many that you've experienced may have been misdiagnosed, I can tell you its extremely legitimate and in my case will probably be lifelong. On the other hand, my creativity and design skills are directly proportional to my qwirky brainmovements. Not necessarily in the stuff I post on here, but in unusual inventions like this one).

I'm gonna let someone who knows more of the specifics respond to the Alcoholism topic. Having alcoholism does not remove the responsibility of it (tho many americans abuse its existence for that reason), no moreso than being predisposed to violent behavior excuses violence. But the fact that the violence is their responsibility does not invalidate their natural inclination towards violence.

souL said:
In the 70s, when you wanted to quit drinking, you just did.
In the 70s, people were just supposed to stop being so depressed too. A lot of misguided people even suggested to my mother that she wasn't praying enough or had unconfessed sin, which is the exact same mistaken viewpoint of Job's friends in the Book of Job in the bible. The point was she just was depressed, it wasn't anything she did, and there was no good way to get out of it either. And she wasn't a social recluse pulling out her depression card to have an excuse. This was a genuinely vivacious person who suddenly became a deadbeat.

I see your point soul, as we are constantly running to medication and looking for disorders as an excuse (see my post earlier today). But that does not invalidate those who truly are struggling with these problems and not using them as a crutch.
 
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Soul.
First, personal attacks make you look like a 10 year old. You have good thoughts, don't loose them looking like an adolescent. They also don't make you right.
Second, Quoting a turn of the century writer isn't proof of anything. Mark Twain wouldn't have known a double helix from a river raft. That "proof" don't cut it. Straight ethos.
I have had this argument till I was blue in the face for years. I will not change your mind. I hope for your sake that you do not have a family "just choose" to be an alcoholic, compulsive obsessive, ADD whatever.
You will change your tune.
 
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BFS: I'm not arguing that ADD is a disease, it is. I completely agree with you. I was (in my eyes) improperly diagnosed with ADD when I was in 5th grade. I was a class clown, striving to fit in with the kids. I was like any other 5th grader really, seeking acceptance from his peers. I could make the other kids laugh so I routinely tried... it escalated. I would often use physical humor, too. I always found I could get by with average to above average grades without putting in as much work as other kids, and these two factors lead my genius teachers to conclude that I had some kind of attention disability. So, sure neough I saw a doctor who I believe asked me all of about four questions before he whipped out that perscription of Ritalin for me. Needless to say, I only started to change as I matured throughout the years (though it wasn't much, I'm still a childish prick today). I'm still one of the laziest National Merit Scholars I've ever met. Companies like Pfizer and Eli-Lilly nearly demand over-perscription because that's how they make money. Go coperate America.

Folanator: I realize what quoting Twain meant. Ethos, just an opinion, a belief, that's why I posted 'this is just a belief.' PLEASE, PLEASE I implore you if you would like to converse, debate, or berate me (and this goes for anyone) just READ what I type.

My quote from Twain was simply an offering as to why I didn't have to delve into the reasons that people quit drinking alcohol. I believe wholeheartedly that people are incapable of change unless forces outside themselves cause them to. So naturally, when I say 'the people I knew one day chose to quit drinking' I infer 'there were exterior forces that made the people I knew one day quit drinking.' Those exterior forces are assumed to be negative, as well. The Twain quote had NOTHING to do with medicine, the diagnosis of disease, alcoholism, or anything of the like.

Also--you know NOTHING of my family--one of the people I speak of could very well be a family member. For the record, one of the people of whom I am speaking is my uncle, who is a VERY, VERY close friend of mine. He means the world to me, and he quickly became an alcoholic. He never appeared at a family function not liquored up. He couldn't hold a job because he drank at work. He couldn't function in society. One day, he stopped drinking. I asked him a year or so later 'how did you do it?' I almost immediately assumed it was religion, as that side of my family was always much more religious than the other, and he's now a very religous person, but he simply said 'No. No one helped me quit. No one had to. One day I looked at what I was doing and I said to myself 'this is death' and I quit.'

I won't deny that there are plenty of alcoholics who can't/won't quit drinking, and it will kill them. It doesn't make it any more of a disease than other vices people persue despite it being fatal. Smoking, Gambling, eating fast food. Are these diseases?
 
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souL said:
Smoking, Gambling, eating fast food. Are these diseases?
Well said, and I did not mean to berate you.

The answer is I have no idea really. Most issues of this sort are shown to run in families so it seems to lend credence that they are inherited traits. I can only go by my experiences. I am glad for your uncle, but I can assure you that he is the exception rather than the rule. Most cannot do it on their own for an extended period of time, that is where the fellowship of many 12 step programs comes in to play. That could be AA, NA, OEA, GA or a plethera of self help groups.

No worries, just a difference in opinion.
 
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Alcoholism is an inherited disease in the sense that some people can metabolize alcohol better/not develop a physical addiction. That said, the cure is completely free and obvious-put down the bottle. Willpower is the only medicine. There was a comedian/entertainer who spoke at our school who was unable to eat wheat-it made him horribly ill, and severely impaired his functioning in society. His cure-he is basically on the Atkins diet for life. In either case, the cure is within the 100% control of the individual. Cancer,AIDS,MS patients,etc.-don't have that luxury.
 
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As do loudmouthed, abrasive tibors raise even worse children. Tho that would require a wife, a miracle that even your BP protector can't provide for you.

It is very difficult to distinguish between addictions/trends and disorders. There's no question taht there are certain bloodlines that have a tendency towards alcoholism. It runs in my family, tho the last two generations have been totally dry and barely touched the stuff. However, I bet if I allowed myself to be irresponsible with the stuff that tendency would flair up. Obviously it is my choice and my mistake, but I might have 3x more trouble quitting where others could walk away.

Soul, I was more responding to the general sentiment than you in particular. I appreciate your response, and its refreshing to see a misdiagnosed kid who believes in it (too often people in your shoes grow up to be ADD-critics).
 
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Folanator said:
Tibs, you're proof that it works for IQ also.

Not true. My parents are very smart and incredibly nice and well-mannered. :slappy:

Yeah, it's not my fault I became drunk because my family did too. Boo-hoo. There are hundreds of diseases that run in families - colon cancer, breast cancer, diabetes, hypertension, cardiac disease - and for which you can't do anything. Darryl Kile was a world class athlete and he couldn't overcome his bad genes. If alcoholism runs in your family and you don't take a single drink...surprise! You're cured. yep, some "disease" :roll1:

It is hysterical how many idiots refuse to take responsibility for their drunken ways by blaming their genes or family. Yeah, I'm sure if you ran over some kid while drunk, their parents would feel sorry for you since you have some "disease"
 
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