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OL Orlando Pace (7-time Pro Bowler, Super Bowl Champion, CFB HOF, NFL HOF)

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jlb1705;630839; said:
Tibor's right to a certain extent. I'm sure Ryan Hamby and Justin Zwick would agree after the way they've been treated by a segment of Buckeye fans.
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Bah, humbug. Frustration at poor performance or unfulfilled expectations comes out inappropriately from a segment of fans from time to time BECAUSE THEY CARE A LOT ABOUT THE TEAM, but we fill the stadium even in bad years, don't switch loyalty to other teams, and don't turn off the TV or stop buying the flags, wearing the jerseys, travelling to the games . . . . The Buckeye fan base has its share of issues, but being bandwagoners, a la USC or Miami, is not one of them. The fans are always with the program, win, tie, or lose . . . and expressing frustration towards a specific individual for not cutting the mustard doesn't change that. Coop was only right if by "you" he meant "John Cooper" . . . and if that's what he meant he showed quite clearly where his priorities were.
 
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tibor75;630569; said:
Coop was 100% correct with that comment.
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indianbait.jpg


:slappy: I think you've got your bag limit there, Tibs.
 
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LordJeffBuck;630600; said:
(1) What Ohio State coach blew 5 national championships in 7 years?
(2) What Ohio State coach went 7 staright years without winning a Big Ten title, the longest drought for the Buckeyes since 1935?
(3) What Ohio State coach was fired after an embarrassing loss in a minor bowl game to a team from South Carolina?
(4) What Ohio State coach posted a 4-loss season in his final year, yet left the program with so much talent that his successor was immediately able to go on a national championship run?
(5) What Ohio State coach caused the Buckeyes to be put on probation?
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None other than Wayne Woodrow Hayes.
 
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Thump;631816; said:
None other than Wayne Woodrow Hayes.
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Correct, sir!

The points being:

(1) If you selectively look at a coach's record, then you can make it appear much better or much worse than it actually was. I think that many people focus far too much on the positives of Woody, and on the negatives of Coop.

(2) From 1951 to 1968, Woody was a great coach - 4 NC's and all that. However, from 1969 to 1978, he was basically John Cooper - consistently the best talent in the land, consistently losing big games (Michigan in 1969, Rose Bowl in 1970, Michigan (tie) in 1973, Michigan State in 1974, Rose Bowl in 1975), consistently coming up short in the hunt for the NC, then finally going out in disgrace after an embarrassing loss in a minor bowl game. Overall, Woody was a great coach and did great things for Ohio State, but his last decade was a unbroken string of "what ifs" and half-finished business, which is how most of us view the Cooper regime (forgetting the good things that Coop accomplished in the process - upgrading team speed, emphasis on national recruiting, creating the pipeline to the NFL, etc.).

Fortunately, Coop's successor has been able to expand upon Coop's positives, while (to date) reducing most of his negatives (big game losses, academic issues, etc.)
 
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LordJeffBuck;631854; said:
from 1969 to 1978, he was basically John Cooper - consistently the best talent in the land, consistently losing big games (Michigan in 1969, Rose Bowl in 1970, Michigan (tie) in 1973, Michigan State in 1974, Rose Bowl in 1975), consistently coming up short in the hunt for the NC, then finally going out in disgrace after an embarrassing loss in a minor bowl game.
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Sorry, LJB, but I got to disagree big time:

1. The loss at Michigan in 1969 can't be compared to any of Cooper's losses to Michigan teams. Michigan actually had a very solid team...they were 7-2 coming into The Game and their defense had given up only 22 points total over the previous four games.
2. The 1973 tie at Michigan was against the then-#4 team in the land that had a defense that was virtually as good as ours (they allowed only 58 points through their first 10 games, including three straight shutouts and four straight games without allowing a TD). Ohio State and Michigan were about as even as two teams could be.
3. The 1974 loss at MSU was bullshit because the refs took away our winning TD.
4. I think you mean the 1976 Rose (UCLA) and not the 1975 Rose Bowl (USC). We had no business losing to UCLA after pounding them 41-20, on their field, earlier in the season. It was either that Rose Bowl, or the 1970 Rose Bowl you mentioned, that many players were pissed at Hayes because of restriction on their freedom prior to the bowl game, and thus didn't give near 100%. That one I'll put on Woody.

Although he may have failed quite a few times in your eyes from 1969 onward, he still had teams consistently playing for national titles and still beat Michigan often (still went 4-4-1 against Michigan after the 1969 upset, and three of those losses were in his last three years as coach).

John Cooper not once had an Ohio State team playing for a national title, i.e., in a game that if they won they'd be national champs. Cooper not only lost to Michigan nearly every year, but he never won at Ann Arbor--not once--and several times lost to markedly inferior Wolverine teams:

1993: OSU (9-0-1) Mich (6-4) lost 28-0
1995: OSU (11-0) Mich (8-3) lost 31-23
1996: OSU (11-0) Mich (7-3) lost 13-9

Most glaring is the 1993 28-point ass-whooping...how in the fuck can an undefeated team averaging 32.3 ppg get pounded by four TDs and shutout by a four-loss team?
 
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Jagdaddy;630877; said:
Bah, humbug. Frustration at poor performance or unfulfilled expectations comes out inappropriately from a segment of fans from time to time BECAUSE THEY CARE A LOT ABOUT THE TEAM, but we fill the stadium even in bad years, don't switch loyalty to other teams, and don't turn off the TV or stop buying the flags, wearing the jerseys, travelling to the games . . . . The Buckeye fan base has its share of issues, but being bandwagoners, a la USC or Miami, is not one of them. The fans are always with the program, win, tie, or lose . . . and expressing frustration towards a specific individual for not cutting the mustard doesn't change that. Coop was only right if by "you" he meant "John Cooper" . . . and if that's what he meant he showed quite clearly where his priorities were.
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If sending a college kid death threats and participating in a chorus of boos is how you show you care, then I'd hate to be in a family with those people. Sure, those people are loyal - and if they're gonna act like that, then it's a shame that we're stuck with them.
 
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MililaniBuckeye;631912; said:
Sorry, LJB, but I got to disagree big time:

1. The loss at Michigan in 1969 can't be compared to any of Cooper's losses to Michigan teams. Michigan actually had a very solid team...they were 7-2 coming into The Game and their defense had given up only 22 points total over the previous four games.
2. The 1973 tie at Michigan was against the then-#4 team in the land that had a defense that was virtually as good as ours (they allowed only 58 points through their first 10 games, including three straight shutouts and four straight games without allowing a TD). Ohio State and Michigan were about as even as two teams could be.
3. The 1974 loss at MSU was bullshit because the refs took away our winning TD.
4. I think you mean the 1976 Rose (UCLA) and not the 1975 Rose Bowl (USC). We had no business losing to UCLA after pounding them 41-20, on their field, earlier in the season. It was either that Rose Bowl, or the 1970 Rose Bowl you mentioned, that many players were pissed at Hayes because of restriction on their freedom prior to the bowl game, and thus didn't give near 100%. That one I'll put on Woody.
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A couple of other points. In 1973, Corny Greene had a broken thumb and completed a total of zero passes in that game. It's hard to blame Woody for a tie on the road against an undefeated team with a QB that couldn't throw at all.

In the Rose Bowl following the 1970 season, I've often seen the comment about the players not liking the situation before the game and that their attitude affected their performance. Well, they failed to show up that day to the tune of 380 rushing yards! That's right, they ran the ball for 380 yards that day, and only scored 17 points. So in that game, I wouldn't say the team wasn't ready to play. The issue was red zone offense, which was also an issue on other Woody teams during the 1970s.
 
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