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Pepsi in a new can

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"Because the courts correctly realized that it would put undue pressure on those who did not want to participate. How would you feel if you were the only one in 4th grade who didn't bow their head and say a prayer?"

Tibor,

My answer:

The same I feel when I go to a Catholic wedding and I'm the only person not kneeling, I don't give a damn.

Again, it's a case of people with too much time on their hands so they decide to get some publicity by filing such a suit about the pledge.

Also you seem to prove my point that it didn't bother you at all to say the pledge. Most kids say it like robots anyways, they don't even know what the meaning is behind what they are saying.

I may ask my class tomorrow the meaning of the pledge and just see if they know what it means.

Good debate by the way fellas.

This is good stuff.
 
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Yes, religion played an important role in the formation of this great nation. That's exactly why our forefathers saw fit to write and ratify these words:

Amendment I



Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

This isn't about being PC. This is about the law. Political correctness is a tool that is abused by people on both ends of the political spectrum. Don't hide behind that crap, it's weak.

I have Muslim students who just don't say the word God and no one even thinks twice about it.
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Well, I am. Our government belongs as much to the non-religious as it does to the religious. It belongs to citizens from Eastern religious traditions as much as it does to citizens from Western religious traditions. It belongs to non-Christians as much as it does to Christians. The Pledge of Allegiance belongs to all of us. Why should some of us have to tiptoe around a couple of the words? What harm does it do to Christians to not have those words in the Pledge? There are plenty of private forums where people are free to practice their religious beliefs. What do people gain by incorporating private matters into public practices and policies like this?

People like Pat Tillman are over there giving the ultimate sacrifice and we have little pansies whining about the word "God" in a Pledge. How ridiculous do you feel about your selfish wants!!
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Well, I feel plenty ridiculous for attempting to reply to such and invalid, incorrect, and fallacious statement, but here goes. Great men like Pat Tillman sacrifice themselves for the rights of everyone in this country. And as for being selfish, that's just plain false. Not all of us are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, Scientologists, or even religious in any way. We are all American though, and that should be the exclusive theme of the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge of Allegiance should serve to unify the people of this nation, yet our government continues to sanction a version of this pledge that serves only a portion of the nation. Yes, that portion is a very large one, but it is a portion nonetheless. People have disagreed over theology and spirituality for as long as we can detect, and that's not about to change anytime soon. Therefore, for the sake of having a Pledge of Allegiance that unifies the people of this nation as much as possible, it is best that we leave those controversial matters out of it.
 
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Then why is "In God We Trust" the National Motto?
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I don't know, Thump, it wasn't adopted by the founding fathers, but was adopted in 1956, the same year that the pledge of allegience was altered from it's original form to include the words "under god" that are the basis for the debate we are having.

Also, are you aware that students are not "forced" to say the pledge.They have the right not to say if they don't feel comfortable doing so. People are under the impression that students get in trouble for not saying the pledge, that's just not true.
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I can remember when it was.

Woody, what other religions were they referring to back in the 1700's besides Christian-based religions?
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Well, most Christian sects at that time did not believe that other Christian sects were in fact Christian. Furthermore, there were several founding fathers who were professed Deists, or as we call them now, Gnostics. We also knew of other religions at that time, so therefore it is unlikely that Madison and Hamilton would have used the term "Freedom of Religion" to mean "freedom to practice any variation on christianity"

Also, Nixon is correct that the country was founded on "Classical" liberalism, but those of you who know me, know that I refer to Classical Liberalism whenever I mention liberalism, because I maintain that there is no difference.
 
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Woody & JLB,



Both of you provide very good responses.



Woody,

When were you forced to say the pledge?

Also, do you guys find it an outrage that In God We Trust in on our currency?

My problem is when is all of this crap going to stop?

How many of these people even lose sleep at night over stuff like this?
 
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woody1968: The forefathers didn't found the country based on God.

Uh, yeah they did. The biggest reason for folks fleeing the English Isles prior to our country's founding was to excape religious persecution.

slurpee-boy: Then why isn't school prayer allowed in schools?

Because overzealous morons with no life are reading too much into the "separation of church and state" clause in the Constitution. Religion ruled the English Empire in the middle/latter part of the last millenium, and our fore fathers wanted nothing of that. However, they still were devotely regligious indidivuals and felt religion was an important part of everyday life.
 
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Uh, yeah they did. The biggest reason for folks fleeing the English Isles prior to our country's founding was to excape religious persecution.
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People fled England in the 1600's. The USA was founded in 1776 by people who had lived here their whole lives without religious persecution. That's like saying that my decisions today are motivated by what happened 200 years ago.

Thump: I don't think it should be on money either, although I don't lose any sleep at night. I was forced to say the Pledge by Westerville Public Schools in the 70's and early 1980's.
 
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People fled England in the 1600's. The USA was founded in 1776 by people who had lived here their whole lives without religious persecution. That's like saying that my decisions today are motivated by what happened 200 years ago.

People were still coming to this continent well after the 1600s, and for essentially the same reasons. If you think the folks living in "the colonies" were free from religious persecution, I think you should re-read your history books. England was still trying to control every aspect of colonial life (religion, taxation, etc.) and stated that the colonies were subject to English rule under their king as a part of their empire.
 
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Also, do you guys find it an outrage that In God We Trust in on our currency?

My problem is when is all of this crap going to stop?

How many of these people even lose sleep at night over stuff like this?
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Yes, I do think that that's not right. The government is perfectly capable of conducting its business or decorating its affairs without invoking a diety, religious tradition, or even spirituality in general. In an nation as diverse as ours, this stuff can only serve to divide us.
 
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I really don't care that much about the issue, but from a purely legal and constitutional perspective, it would seem to me that the under god clause and the In god we trust motto, are violations of the establishment clause.
 
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Thump said:
JLB,


It's only leftists such as yourselves that see everything as derisive!

Do you honestly think it was added to be divisive? It was added to bring people together.
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I don't think that divisiveness for Americans was the intent, but it's a result, and there's nothing stopping this country from fixing it. Sure, it does a good job of bringing Christians together, but it's not the government's place to do that. The Pledge should bring us together as Americans, Americans who can exist together regardless of our religious traditions.

Leftist, huh? You say that as if it's derisive. Let's see, so far you've called me PC, selfish, a pansy, and now this. Especially in this day and age, if thinking that uniting all of the county under the flag and the Constitution is better than uniting under the religion of only a portion of the nation, then I gladly accept those labels.

Finally, consider this Carlin-esque example. Instead of God, I choose to revere my buddy Darrell. He's a funny guy, he always has my back, and he always brings over cold beer. Because of this, I think we should print our money with the motto "Darrell is way cool!" and recite the Pledge including the phrase "One nation, which loves Darrell because he's a stellar drinking buddy, indivisible..."

How about everybody else though? Last week, Darrell beat up three guys at a bar just for looking at him funny, and then he flipped off everybody else when he left. How do you think they feel about the new version of the Pledge and the money? Not to mention, people outside of the metro Dayton area would be asking, "Who the fuck is Darrell?!" For them, wouldn't a Darrell-free version of those items be better?
 
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"Finally, consider this Carlin-esque example. Instead of God, I choose to revere my buddy Darrell. He's a funny guy, he always has my back, and he always brings over cold beer. Because of this, I think we should print our money with the motto "Darrell is way cool!" and recite the Pledge including the phrase "One nation, which loves Darrell because he's a stellar drinking buddy, indivisible..."

How about everybody else though? Last week, Darrell beat up three guys at a bar just for looking at him funny, and then he flipped off everybody else when he left. How do you think they feel about the new version of the Pledge and the money? Not to mention, people outside of the metro Dayton area would be asking, "Who the fuck is Darrell?!" For them, wouldn't a Darrell-free version of those items be better?"

WTF!! Please explain you're ridiculous connection here.

What do you suggest we replace the pledge with?

All you guys do is bitch about this country and how it's run. Why don't you run for office so you can do something about it!!

Under your guys plan you just want to have everyone live in this utopian society!

As far as atheists, who says we have to cater to them? It's their problem for living in a country that they are in the vast majority. Wecan't cater to every single person's needs?

You think this is ridiculous but I'll say it again, if you like bad-mouthing this great country, get the hell out!!

Woody1968,

"Why do people make assinine statements like this? Does this mean that if you, Thump, disagree with any law, statute or direction of the court, it should be you that gets the hell out and moves to another country? I would hazard a guess that if we applied this statement equally to all who disagree with any particular rule, law or requirement, that this whole country would be empty."

Since when is not saying the words "Under God" going to get you thrown in jail?

I said that you have the right to not say it.

BTW, when's the last time I've heard you guys say anything positive about the US?
 
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