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Discussion in 'Open Discussion (Work-safe)' started by KillerNut, Mar 16, 2004.

  1. KillerNut

    KillerNut Banned

    I am glad that political debate has become part of this forum. It is fun to see, and I think has remained civil.

    Thankfully we have what seems to be two sides of the discussion, and everyone is remembering that we are all, (for the most part) Buckeyes.

    That said let me throw out some of my own opinions based on the different issues and how I see them as of now.


    I have a job, but I know that there are too many Americans that don't. With the exporting of Jobs to places like Mexico, India, and other nations for a better bottom lines in business, in seems the the difference between the haves and have nots is rising. All of this along with an ecconomy that is just now starting to show signs of life, makes many Americans wonder about the future. When we started into a more global ecconomy the hope was that we would be come a service, vs manufaturing based ecconomy. Well now the service jobs are going abroad, the Technology industry is not performing as it once does, and it appears America.

    As I see it we are faced with a true choice here.

    Kerry wants to raise taxes, giving americans, and american businesses less money to invest therefore driving the ecconomy forward. Not only that but the higher taxes are going to further encourage the exportation of jobs. He is going to instill tarriffs which are one of mans worst creations, a sign to the world signaling weakness.

    Bush wants to move forward with the status quo, lower taxes, lower tarriffs, and giving the ecconomy time to work it's way out of this funk.

    Obviously I am pro-Bush on this

    Gay Marrige:

    Both canidates say they are against it. I don't really understand why? I don't agree with the Gay life style, I think that true marriage ordained by God is between a man and a woman only, but for the purposes of GOVERNMENT, not the church, I don't have a problem with it. I am for equal rights, and equitable chance. And I don't think that there is any problem with it in a Governmental sense.

    Kerry will flip on this when he is actually voted into office IMHO so I would say it is an advantage.


    Bush had 9/11 happen during his presidency. IMHO because Clinton did not do enough to take care of this threat, because he was too busy defending himself against things that he did, and shouldn't have. He has kept our nation safe since then. He used a great deal of restrain, and intelligence and calm in dealing with the situation in Afghanastan, and unfortunatley not enough in dealing with Iraq. Bad information was the real enemy there. He has had soliders come home in body bags during his presidency. Something no one wants to see. He however has shown the world that we don't need the UN's permission to do what we think is in our best interest, so you better respect our nation, and it's wishes.

    Kerry would rather go back to being a pawn in the UN. Granted I think the Unilatteral UN actions are very much prefered, but I understand also why we did what we did.

    Pro Bush.


    Although I am not infavor of raising them I do believe that the Rich are getting too big of a tax break. I agree strongly with Kerry that the poor are getting poorer, and the gap between rich and poor is widening. I do not believe this is good for the ecconomy, nor for America.


    I don't believe either of them can do anything to really inpact education.

    Health Care:

    I am split. We have to lower costs, and we must make it more accessable

    Here is my problem. On one hand I see that America has got the best Doctors in the world, we are the nation that is most responsible for the creation of new drugs which hopefully someday will cure Cancer, AIDS, or other diseases. I think that by eliminating some of the costs of malpractus, and regulating settlements we can help this problem

    However I do think we need a safety net of minimum life saving medicine and Docors visit for free for those who are unable to get medical insurance (they would have to show need to apply) Also Doctors could not be sued for treating these patience, even if it was obviously malpractus.

    In other words neither is speaking my language here, I would be happy with a comprimise.


    I think both men have about the same character, although different. I guess I would give Bush a slight edge, because although his staff is crooked Washington insiders, Bush himself I don't believe is. Kerry is a Washington insider.

    I am sure I am missing other issues. I just tried to talk about some of the more important ones to me. Please feel free to disagree, but please do not name call, and stick to your own ideas, not tearing down others.
  2. tibor75

    tibor75 Banned

    "I think both men have about the same character, although different. I guess I would give Bush a slight edge"

    Yeah, sending 500 men to die for lies and refusing to cooperate with an investigation about the deaths of 3,000 are marks of great character.

    But lying about a blow job is absolute horror!!!!!!!!
  3. BuckeyeInTheBoro

    BuckeyeInTheBoro This space left intentionally blank

    ??? Are you working an all nighter or something? Your last few posts have had little if anything to do with the topic being discussed.

    The poster said that character was about even, he didn't say Bush had marks of great character and when did Kerry lying about a blow job come into the discussion?

    Where does all your anger come from anyway?
  4. tibor75

    tibor75 Banned

    because although his staff is crooked Washington insiders, Bush himself I don't believe is.

    Nope, he's crooked. are you happy now, BuckeyeintheBoro?
  5. Ex-Wolverine

    Ex-Wolverine Newbie

    This is fun! Conservatives exist... I spent three years at UM trying to find one...


    There are plenty. I just heard that the New York Times reported an 8% increase in ad revenue from want ads. People who don't have jobs at this point either don't have them because there is something seriously wrong with them, they don't want one, they're too lazy to look, or they aren't willing to swallow their pride and take what's available for now.

    Trickle down doesn't really work, but neither does anything the Dems do as far as jobs.

    Gay Marriage:

    I don't agree with it, but if they want to have a civil union, let them. Tax it. There's no reason why they shouldn't be able to get on each others' insurance, and as a country, the public benefits from unions.

    But don't let it happen in a Christian church.


    Bush is a cowboy, and the world fears us. That's the way it should be.

    However, I am sick of the US being police for the rest of the world. Screw them. Let the UN take care of that. The US should concentrate on beefing up our defense, and only flex that muscle when there is a direct threat to us from outside. Quit wasting our money helping out people who stab us in the back, spend it here on education and infrastructure.


    I would scale back the tax cut. Sure, the rich pay a larger portion of the taxes than the poor do, but the rich aren't the ones going without food or medical care. Sorry, call me a socialist or whatever, but I think that there are drawbacks to everything in life. If being rich means that you have to pay more in taxes (or be more resourceful in building a tax shelter) then tough spit.


    I would dramatically increase spending to the point where everyone can afford to go if they want to. I would give tax breaks to banks that are lenient when giving out student loans, and I would limit tuition increases.

    Health care:

    Needs to be made available to everyone who needs it. Legalize marijuana, tax the living crap out of it, and spend half on education, half on health care. My legalization plan is outlined below.


    Only if there's a good reason why she wants it done. If she just screwed up, hey, that's too bad. We all make mistakes.

    But if she was raped, or if the pregnancy could cost her of the baby it's life, or if she's a crack head giving birth to a crack baby, or if it's retarded then allow an abortion.

    Marijuana Legalization:

    OK, as promised...
    Drugs lead to the decay of society. This is true. However, there is a portion of society that are just going to do this kind of thing whether it's legal or not.

    Right now, according to my pothead friends, 1/8th of an ounce costs $35. That's about 5 joints. A pack of cigarettes, in Michigan, costs about $4.50.

    Marijuana is one of the easiest plants to grow on Earth. It's cheap to grow, yields quickly, can be grown densely and the entire plant can be utilized for good. The companies that grow tobacco today could EASILY grow marijuana, and the production cost would be a fraction of what it costs to make a pack of cigarettes.

    A pack of cigarettes costs $3 in Ohio, maybe $1.25 of that gets back to the tobacco company. Of that, let's say it costs .25 a pack to produce it, leacing them with a $1 per pack profit (numbers are skewed, I am sure, but let's do this for simplicity's sake).

    You get 20 cigarettes for $3. 20 joints would cost you $140 ($35 per 5). You could have a tobacco company grow marijuana cigarettes for less than the $.25 per pack production cost, and sell them for $35 per pack.

    You could have $32 of that go to the government, and give the tobacco companies $3 per pack instead of the $1.25 they were getting before. They would be all over that.

    The people who buy weed would be all over it too, since they are used to paying $140 for something they would now be able to get for $35. Plus, they don't have to go out of their way to get it, it would be available at any liquor store, and they wouldn't have to worry about getting busted with it. DUI would be the only thing to worry about. Plus, the government could regulate the potency and eventually lower it to the point where it's completely harmless.

    Then, all those billions and billions of dollars a year that are exchanged selling weed today, the proceeds of which go into the pockets of drug dealers would instead go to the government.

    Instead of that money paying for Jorge to buy a new Range Rover and an AK47, that money would instead send Johnny to college or pay for Susie's medical bills.

    Basically, the people who smoke weed, the people who are otherwise contributing to the decay of society would now be contributing to its welfare.

    The potheads are happy because their costs are being cut by 75%. The tobacco companies are happy because their profits are more than doubling. The rich are happy because they can keep their tax cuts. The poor are happy because now they get free education and health care. The wardens are happy because now nobody is going to jail for selling weed. The cops are happy because now they can concentrate on catching the REAL bad guys.

    It's a win-win-win-win-win-win situation.
  6. BuckNutty

    BuckNutty Hear The Drummer Get Wicked Staff Member Bookie

    Good to know your friend is rolling pinners :pimp: :lol:
  7. Ex-Wolverine

    Ex-Wolverine Newbie

    Well, yeah. They aren't going to be mistaken for cigarettes, ya know? Definitely pinners, but I was trying to be as generous as I could with the numbers.
  8. BuckeyeSoldier

    BuckeyeSoldier 2 time Reigning BuckeyePlanet Poker Champion

    alright, i didnt even bother reading either of those long posts hitting every issue, i only got to jobs on both of them and was disgusted.. ok, first up was killer nut who basically made his point by dismissing the effectiveness of tariffs, which he said himself bush wants to lower, WHY does bush want to lower them? so more of his corperate buddies can shipt joe blows job overseas and make a killing at our expense... please explain to me how tariffs dont work? you want to make them work ill tell you exactly how you run it, you base your tariffs on that countries minimum wage.. the less they pay their workers the MORE they will pay to have their goods shipped into our country.. so either these corperations pay the 3rd world countries workers a fair wage, or they pay through the ass to sell to the rich nations.. ex-wolverine... you MUST be kidding.. that is the most arugant pig-headed thing ive heard in a week at least... you think that there are plenty of jobs to go around and anyone who doesnt have one is simply lazy or has something wrong with them?? what planet are you living on please i MUST know...
  9. gbearbuck

    gbearbuck Herbie for President


    If we create Tariffs, other country's will do the same to us (using different products... think ag stuff to begin with)... All that would do is basically increase inflation (cost of goods would go up, income would stay the same)...
  10. Woody1968

    Woody1968 Agent Provocateur

    Yeah, I for one am glad we have made ourselves the enemy of the world. I am ready for the new cold war.

    Gee, then it's too bad Bush completely undermined the UN and made it irrelevant, by ignoring the UN, Hans Blix and virtually all of the evidence, when he up and invaded Iraq last year.
  11. Ex-Wolverine

    Ex-Wolverine Newbie

    McDonalds had a hiring sign in the window last time I drove by. Everywhere I go, I see signs for telemarketers. Open the want ads, and you see places hiring people with CDL licenses, always.

    There are jobs available. McDonalds, Taco Bell, etc. they are ALWAYS hiring. Literally always.
  12. gbearbuck

    gbearbuck Herbie for President


    If you were an executive at a company, I don't think 20k-25k a year will pay the bills
  13. RAMdrvr1

    RAMdrvr1 All Galaxy '14 NCAA Pick'em Champ

    I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on Ex-W (that is the best I can do), because I'm not. His is the post I disagree the most with. So here goes.

    If a person is 18-22 yrs. old, living at home , and has only a car payment & insurance to worry about, then there is a number of jobs out there. If a person is 35-50 yrs. old, has a morgage, two kids in school, 1-2 vehicles w/insurance, utilities, property taxes, clothing and food bills, there are no jobs for that person. Before you say that that person should be working, almost every week you read in the paper or hear on the news where huge corp. are laying off anywhere from 1500 to 7500 poeple. These are people who have worked there for 15-20 years and because of how long they have worked there, are making the money to be able to make the payments I mentioned above. These are also the jobs that the corp. are then taking overseas, with our government's blessings. So tell me how this person can take a $7.50-$8.00 an hr. job?

    Let's just prertend that there is nothing morally work with gay marriages. The minute gay marriages are legalized, health insurances will double for everyone, again with the blessings of our government. Think you can understand why?

    So it's good that the world fears us. You need to wake up. The day will come that the big bad USA is going to need the support of these countries that "fear" us, and they are not going to be there. Don't mistake fear for respect.

    Education. I don't know what is going on inm other states as far as where their public education system is at financially, but Ohio schools are in big trouble. Because of the economy, school levies all across the state have been failing in record numbers, companies that one time paid taxes to school systems are now overseas, teachers are losing their jobs (maybe they shuld go to McD ?), classrooms are getting bigger (kids that once got help are no longer getting it). And your solution is to legalize marijuana?

    Abortions. I am a Christian, so you know my position here.

    Gotta go. Both of my fingers are tired. :biggrin:
  14. buckeyebri

    buckeyebri 40 Days in the Hole


    I'm not sure where to begin, because I have made comments on this in other posts and don't want to repeat it. Let's just say I agree with RAM and Soldier on this one. Besides, I didn't get a Masters degree to work at no fucking McDonalds!!!!! How about fair trade as opposed to free trade.


    The more educated our society the better off we will be in the long run. College should be as accessible to all individuals as possible. I get sick and tired of seeing tuition increases above inflation. Then the schools cry when they get cuts from state, while they are building clock towers and other BS on their campus. K-12 education is in total crisis mode. We spend more than any other nation per student in this area yet we still can't solve the problems we have. I think we need to look at the socials aspects behind why our K-12 education system is floundering. This should be in the hands of the state and locals, not the feds.


    What a sad state of affairs the environment is. Not only in the U.S., but the companies going from the U.S. and indrustrializing the other nations are raping and pillaging the earth for profit. Think about what the generations to come will have. The current administration is not helping matters here.


    Holy Cow!!!!! Once again think future generations.....


    We will have them no matter what it is just a matter again of what is fair methodology across the board. The property owners will be reeling if they aren't already from the income tax cuts at the federal and state levels.


    Someone might want to send Webster's meaning of this word to the current administration. It is the Ugly American syndrome all over.

    That's enough for now.....
  15. Ex-Wolverine

    Ex-Wolverine Newbie

    Well, once unemployment runs out, if there are truly no jobs in their field, I guess they need to sell the house and move to a place they can afford. Sell the extra car, or both cars and buy something economical that costs less for insurance. If the kids are in high school, they can either continue driving them to the good school, or they can go wherever it is that they move. If they're in college, well, it's time for those kids to take out loans.

    As for taking jobs overseas with our government's blessings, that's the work of the republicans.

    Don't get me wrong, I am NOT Republican bashing. I am a right leaning moderate, voted for Bush and will vote for him again. I want to see more jobs, but to say that there are no jobs is false. At a certain point, it becomes a neccessity to go out and work. If that means that you work at McDonalds after working 20 years at the factory, well, it's better than being homeless, isn't it?

    Yeah, it's horrible that stuff like that happens. Yeah, it's tough to swallow your pride and take a step or two backwards in the class system. But it's something you have to do to survive.

    OK, I don't agree that health insurance would double, because for it to double, half of American right now would have to be gay couples. They aren't. But let's pretend that were true.

    I am a devout Christian, and I believe firmly that homosexuality is wrong. But I also believe that no matter what someone's sexual orientation is, they deserve medical care, and basic human rights. If we're going to keep people from being able to tack on to their husband's health insurance because they prefer canolis to crullers, then where does it end? Seems arbitrary to me.

    Morals are subjective, based on each individual, and are not exactly a good base for making these kinds of laws. I mean, a guy can work for a Fortune 500 company and have a wife and kids, but spend his weekends driving around playgrounds looking for little kids to molest. Another guy can work at a Fortune 500 company, spend his weekends volunteering at a soup kitchen, but has a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend. Both of them, by Christian standards, are immoral. Definitely. But the child molester can provide health insurance for he and his family, but the gay guy cannot.

    To me, it seems like we're persecuting one particular sin, while allowing for a lot of others to go on unchecked. If we're going to keep people from getting health insurance because they engage in immoral acts, let's first come up with a universal definition of "immoral," then enforce it for ALL immoral acts.

    We're a secular society, and that's why gay unions should be allowed. Now, if you want to make a case for America becoming a Christian society, that's a completely different story. As a Christian, I wouldn't mind that. And in that case, your immorality argument would hold a TON of water.

    Education - Yes, the schools are in trouble. Judging from the Chronicle of Higher Education, it appears to be true everywhere.

    As for legalizing marijuana as my solution, well, I am thinking outside the box. I am trying to come up with SOME WAY to get the money. Nobody's really volunteering to pay extra to keep the level of education up. The money has to come from somewhere.

    And don't worry about "picking on me." I am a big boy, I have had whole groups of people pick on me. I am an Avalanche fan who was born and raised in Detroit. I am anti-Affirmative Action and went to the University of Michigan. I am used to being "picked on" and I can take it.

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