Program in turmoil (maybe not)

[jwinslow]

You seem to be suggesting our football team needs to start sucking as bad as those three schools' in order for our basketball team to do well. That makes no sense.

That's not even sort of what he's saying, and you know that. Nothing about his post was confusing nor unfair.

Even if one thinks OSU should be much better than they are currently, they are not close to being a blue blood program in basketball.

 

[buckeyebri]

What's the first sport you think of when you hear the names of those schools listed above? Now apply the same test to Ohio State.

If you're holding OSU basketball to the standards of those schools, you're never going to be happy. They're CBB blue bloods. Ohio State is not.

You are right, these are blue blood programs of basketball. They are successful because of how they run the program, even with the one and done, scenario that Taos was referencing. They understand how to recruit and develop players and build program for the long haul. You win with people...

Edit: I am not suggesting that tOSU will ever be a blueblood basketball program. I am suggesting that they can be a program that consistently competes at a high level.

 

[dozenmonkeyz]

OSU is the largest athletic department in the country. Our MBB program has been above average (and typically well above average) since Matta's been here. He recruits consistently well against the best teams in the nation. To say OSU isn't a basketball school is ridiculous. The football history and budget has ZERO impact on the ability of the hoops program to also thrive and be successful. They have facilities, money, and access to every advantage and should be able to produce consistently. It's absolutely possible to be a basketball school and a football school and a fencing school and a research school and a..... Because that's what OSU is and has been. Therefore expectations shouldn't be reined in or limited; simply realistic given the current situation.

It appears the current situation for MBB is, as this thread is titled, in turmoil. I trust Matta to settle things and expect his program to return to form. Maybe it was player attitude, maybe lack of assistant coaching quality, maybe it's just been a shit run of luck. But he's earned the opportunity to do work and the program deserves to expect success from him.

 

[Systems_id]

Sweet 16 or bust can bust because of one bad game - ask Sparty. I'm far more interested in actually getting to the tournament, beating quality teams to get there, and showing the kind of effort we saw versus Kentucky on a game in, game out basis. It's not about possibly losing one game in March. It's about the months leading up to it.

Agreed with this. I'm more interested in seeing how the team looks through out '16-'17 season than just the tournament. If they actually look like a coherent team the majority of the season I'll consider that progress. If not then it may be time to have the talk.

 

[CentralMOBuck]

Imagine if Zeke had transfered after his freshman year because he didn't think he got to play enough. I think this is more of a problem with basketball itself where these kids are constantly told how great they are.

 

[jwinslow]

OSU is the largest athletic department in the country. Our MBB program has been above average (and typically well above average) since Matta's been here. He recruits consistently well against the best teams in the nation. To say OSU isn't a basketball school is ridiculous. The football history and budget has ZERO impact on the ability of the hoops program to also thrive and be successful. They have facilities, money, and access to every advantage and should be able to produce consistently. It's absolutely possible to be a basketball school and a football school and a fencing school and a research school and a..... Because that's what OSU is and has been. Therefore expectations shouldn't be reined in or limited; simply realistic given the current situation.

It appears the current situation for MBB is, as this thread is titled, in turmoil. I trust Matta to settle things and expect his program to return to form. Maybe it was player attitude, maybe lack of assistant coaching quality, maybe it's just been a [Mark May] run of luck. But he's earned the opportunity to do work and the program deserves to expect success from him.

They've been good a few times in the past 75 years and much of that was Thad. They've been weak to terrible for most of that span. They aren't a basketball school.

Should they accept that reality? No! They should try to change their stars and shoot for the moon, but chasing that goal and fans wishing for it to be true does not make it so. Also, if the fans want this to be a basketball school, they should support it accordingly. That support has been sorely lacking, though the heartless Schott doesn't help in that regard.

They have been way above average under Thad. They've been on the fringe of being a top program for the better part of a decade. That's been a stellar accomplishment given what this program usually is and probably will be again after he leaves.

 

[jwinslow]

Imagine if Zeke had transfered after his freshman year because he didn't think he got to play enough. I think this is more of a problem with basketball itself where these kids are constantly told how great they are.

Better yet, imagine if the two dozen benchwarmers from the 2015 class transferred, since only Ward, Baker, Prince played (if I'm forgetting someone, oh well, the point stands). There is a major cultural problem in basketball and it isn't unique to Matta. That's what Hield was talking about, and this wasn't just uncles, promoters and questionable influences, he talked about how family members do harm by complimenting and building them up.

 

[brodybuck21]

They've been good a few times in the past 75 years. They've been weak to terrible for most of that span. They aren't a basketball school.

Should they accept that reality? No! They should try to change their stars and shoot for the moon, but chasing that goal and fans wishing for it to be true does not make it so. Also, if the fans want this to be a basketball school, they should support it accordingly. That support has been sorely lacking, though the heartless Schott doesn't help in that regard.

They have been way above average under Thad. They've been on the fringe of being a top program for the better part of a decade. That's been a stellar accomplishment given what this program usually is and probably will be again after he leaves.

the bolded above x100000000. fans want the best players to come here but then for a majority of the games the fans are nowhere to be found or if they are there they are lackluster at best. Columbus does not support basketball the way it does football and to a lot of the top bball recruits atmosphere matters....just talk to the football recruits

 

[BayBuck]

They've been good a few times in the past 75 years. They've been weak to terrible for most of that span. They aren't a basketball school. People wanting to be one does not change that reality. There's no reason to settle but shooting for the moon does not require misrepresenting what OSU has been. The fans also treat it as a football school when it comes to fan support. The heartless building doesn't help in that regard though.

They have been way above average under Thad. They've been on the fringe of being a top program for the better part of a decade. That's been a stellar accomplishment given what this program usually is and probably will be again after he leaves.

"Weak to terrible", really? That seems too harsh an assessment IMO. Looking back through our coaching records, I see a program that has always been above average, with only occasional sub-.500 periods (Floyd Stahl, late Ayers), winning the Big Ten over 20 times (that's at the top of the conference) and making the NCAA's over 30 (that is top-15 not counting vacated appearances), and tied for 6th all-time in Final Four appearances...

Harold Olsen 259–197 (.568) 154–135 (.533) 4 B1G titles, 4 "Final Fours"
Tippy Dye 53–34 (.609) 27–21 (.563) 1 B1G title
Floyd Stahl 84–92 (.477) 51–65 (.440)
Fred Taylor 297–158 (.653) 158–102 (.608) 7 B1G titles, 1960 NC, 4 "Final Fours"
Eldon Miller 174-120 (.592) 96-84 (.533)
Gary Williams 59–41 (.590) 24–30 (.444)
Randy Ayers 124-108 (.534) (64-80) 2 B1G titles
Jim O'Brien 133-88* (.602) 61-51 (.545) 1 B1G title, 1 Final Four*
Thad Matta 320–108 (.748) 140–66 (.680) 5 B1G titles, 2 Final Fours

There's little question that Matta is our best overall coach, and he's had the highest plateau in our history, but he built that on top of a foundation that was always pretty good - with "weak to terrible" an exception not a rule.

 

[jwinslow]

"Weak to terrible", really? That seems too harsh an assessment IMO. Looking back through our coaching records, I see a program that has always been above average, with only occasional sub-.500 periods (Floyd Stahl, late Ayers), winning the Big Ten over 20 times (that's at the top of the conference) and making the NCAA's over 30 (that is top-15 not counting vacated appearances), and tied for 6th all-time in Final Four appearances...

Harold Olsen 259–197 (.568) 154–135 (.533) 4 B1G titles, 4 "Final Fours"
Tippy Dye 53–34 (.609) 27–21 (.563) 1 B1G title
Floyd Stahl 84–92 (.477) 51–65 (.440)
Fred Taylor 297–158 (.653) 158–102 (.608) 7 B1G titles, 1960 NC, 4 "Final Fours"
Eldon Miller 174-120 (.592) 96-84 (.533)
Gary Williams 59–41 (.590) 24–30 (.444)
Randy Ayers 124-108 (.534) (64-80) 2 B1G titles
Jim O'Brien 133-88* (.602) 61-51 (.444) 1 B1G title, 1 Final Four*
Thad Matta 320–108 (.748) 140–66 (.680) 5 B1G titles, 2 Final Fours

There's little question that Matta is our best overall coach, and he's had the highest plateau in our history, but he built that on top of a foundation that was always pretty good - with "weak to terrible" an exception not a rule.

I was probably a bit harsh.

Mediocre to possibly average seems like a pretty fair description for this:

Tippy Dye 53–34 (.609) 27–21 (.563) 1 B1G title
Floyd Stahl 84–92 (.477) 51–65 (.440)
Eldon Miller 174-120 (.592) 96-84 (.533)
Gary Williams 59–41 (.590) 24–30 (.444)
Randy Ayers 124-108 (.534) (64-80) 2 B1G titles
Jim O'Brien 133-88* (.602) 61-51 (.545) 1 B1G title, 1 Final Four*

If we're comparing OSU to blue bloods, let alone pretending they belong in that territory, then put on their shades and think of how they'd view those eras. That doesn't mean those coaches failed. I'm strictly speaking to whether or not OSU is a basketball school. I'd argue quite emphatically that they can moonlight nearby with the right coach but typically will not be one.

Taylor and Matta had two great runs. Those were great efforts and deserve praise. Those strike me as the exception to the norm, and a pretty huge diversion from it.

I certainly do not know that much about Olsen but looking at the raw numbers I'd suggest that his results were above average with some very good hardware (that was on a different plane from his overall record).

 

[MaxBuck]

I recall Jim O'Brien excusing mediocrity on the basis that he was not coaching at a "basketball blue blood" program. Didn't like it then, don't like it now.

It's not a reasonable excuse, and especially not reasonable given Thad Matta is the 7th-highest-paid coach in college basketball. If you're paid like a blue-blood, it's reasonable to expect blue-blood results.

None of this means I think Matta should be dismissed, nor that I favor ultimatums. But some of the above apologetics relative to the recent decline in program performance are way out of place IMO.

 

[jwinslow]

I recall Jim O'Brien excusing mediocrity on the basis that he was not coaching at a "basketball blue blood" program. Didn't like it then, don't like it now.

It's not a reasonable excuse, and especially not reasonable given Thad Matta is the 7th-highest-paid coach in college basketball. If you're paid like a blue-blood, it's reasonable to expect blue-blood results.

None of this means I think Matta should be dismissed, nor that I favor ultimatums. But some of the above apologetics relative to the recent decline in program performance are way out of place IMO.

I think the truth is somewhere inbetween. Thad should be held to a higher standard than the coaches that came before him, but the typical OSU basketball program should be kept in perspective when hounding him during the tough stretches. What he did to overcome that reality buys him some grace during this "turmoil." If he can sign some higher level talent and get this squad to show potential and improvement, he deserves more time. If they sign lower level talent and continue to languish with uninspiring play, then difficult conversations need to be made (not this year, at least not with his job security).

 

[BayBuck]

I was probably a bit harsh. Maybe "mediocre to ok" is a better description for the bulk of the era (read non Olsen, Taylor, Matta years)? If we're comparing OSU to blue bloods, let alone pretending they belong in that territory, then put on their shades and think of how they'd view those eras.

I see two top eras (Taylor, Matta) a decent one with some very good hardware (Olsen) and a whole lot of forgettable .500ish eras. That doesn't mean those coaches were all terrible by any means. I'm strictly speaking to whether or not OSU is a basketball school. I'd argue quite emphatically that they can moonlight nearby with the right coach but typically will not be one.

I think, looking at OSU's place in the context of NCAA basketball history, we are a top-20 program. But we also have the mean$ to compete with anybody in anything, and if Gene decided it's time to move on and throws big money at, say, Brad Stevens or Sean Miller, we could very well extend the top-10 program that we've had with Matta. At the time, I thought he pulled the trigger on Jim Foster a little too quickly, but as of now it looks like they are taking it to that next level, and there's no reason we can't have the same goals for the men's program.

 

[MaxBuck]

I think the truth is somewhere inbetween. Thad should be held to a higher standard than the coaches that came before him, but the typical OSU basketball program should be kept in perspective when hounding him during the tough stretches. What he did to overcome that reality buys him some grace during this "turmoil." If he can sign some higher level talent and get this squad to show potential and improvement, he deserves more time. If they sign lower level talent and continue to languish with uninspiring play, then difficult conversations need to be made (not this year).

Completely agree. :cheers:

 

[BayBuck]

So the official site has been updated to reflected the current roster, with what looks like just 7 (!) scholarship players remaining. I have to admit there's still a pretty promising starting lineup in there, though.