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Referees control the game

kippy1040

Hall of Fame
After watching all 4 games with Ohio State in this years run to the 2013 final four, i have come to the conclusion and officials and refs can dictate and control what teams reach the final four. The ticky tacky calls, fouls not called that should have been were very obvious in at least 3 of the games. The way Ohio State came back against the Shockers was great. Wichita came at us with venance and by the time we figured it out - i thought it was too late but the refs let us play and it was so fast that the officials could not get thier calls in time. But in the end they started to with the same manner as such in the Iowa state game. I just wondered if they were the same officals.
 
That may have been brought on along time ago. In the late 60's and seventys referees were letting the offensive player control the game
by palming the ball. Alot of those fouls were never called and in turn
the offensive player could control the defensive player with that move.
 
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While I can see where you're coming from to an extent, let's not be "that fanbase" that complains about refs jobbing us.

We were ice cold shooting almost the entire game. We hit better than 25% or whatever it was, we win. Simple as that imo.
 
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FCollinsBuckeye;2324058; said:
While I can see where you're coming from to an extent, let's not be "that fanbase" that complains about refs jobbing us.

We were ice cold shooting almost the entire game. We hit better than 25% or whatever it was, we win. Simple as that imo.

Yea the refs didn't shoot 20% from three :(
 
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FCollinsBuckeye;2324058; said:
While I can see where you're coming from to an extent, let's not be "that fanbase" that complains about refs jobbing us.

We were ice cold shooting almost the entire game. We hit better than 25% or whatever it was, we win. Simple as that imo.

I agree with this, but also see what kippy is saying. Even watching the other games there were spurts where the refs called nothing, even if there were clear fouls under the rim, yet when the game was getting close/ending the refs burped up their whistles and started calling phantom fouls. This was not just in the OSU games (the reffing was terrible in all 3, both ways) but in other games as well.

I think they need to get rid of "conference referees" and have NCAA referees that are assigned to a region. This would hopefully eliminate the inconsistent reffing in the tourney that is only enhanced during the regular season since the conference refs have the same coaches in their ear week in and week out. Just my IMO.
 
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FCollinsBuckeye;2324058; said:
While I can see where you're coming from to an extent, let's not be "that fanbase" that complains about refs jobbing us.

We were ice cold shooting almost the entire game. We hit better than 25% or whatever it was, we win. Simple as that imo.

It's not even the Wichita State game...it was throughout the tournament. I decided to pull Big 10 tourney stats vs. the NCAA tournament for comparison sake:

Wichita State - We had 22 total fouls, Aaron Craft ended up with 4
Arizona - We had 18 total fouls, Craft had 4
Iowa State - We had 20 total fouls, Craft had 3
Iona - We had 17 total fouls, Craft had 1

In the Big 10 tournament:
In title game against Wisky we had 12 total fouls, Craft had zero
Against MSU, we had 11 total fouls, Craft had zero
Against Nebraska we had 11 total fouls, Craft had 3

We averaged around 12 total fouls in Big 10 play throughout the season. We averaged around 19 in the NCAA tournament. Not only do those fouls equate to free-throws, but it forces guys in foul trouble to play less aggressive defense.

I think what we have to be careful of is expecting the NCAA to move towards Big 10 style of play. We can complain about the lack of physicality we are forced to play with, but nationally, that's how other conferences are refereered. If the Big 10 wants to get serious about having success in March, they'll start calling games in a more similar manner aas other BCS conferences.

It's frustrating to watch Craft get nickel and dimers on what we consider good hard defense but it is what it is. Lenzelle Smith picked up 2 horrible fouls, IMO, on bumping cutters against ISU. Would never be called in Big 10 play.

It's why I also believe Michigan has had the most success in the tournament. They haven't had to adjust their style of play at all because they don't play typical Big 10 defense. On the other end of spectrum, the tightly called games really free up their wings and Trey Burke on the perimeter. Burke must be loving life with how these games are called.....I posted this in the Michigan/UF game thread:

Louisville and Syracuse both play zones. They're physical, but it's a different type of ball pressure. And a majority of the fouls OSU got called on were for bumping players on cuts. Louisville and Cuse are just a different animal. In zone defense you aren't bumping every time a guy runs through your area. Cuse is all about forcing bad outisde shots while Louisville is all about setting traps on poor ball handlers. Ville gets questionable calls on them with some frequency based on the aggressiveness of their traps, but again its much different than the half-court man defense OSU & MSU run. OSU & MSU were taking fouls on run of the mill sets where a guy cuts across the paint and we nick him. Or Craft is applying ball pressure. Or Ravenal cuts across the paint for a rebound on a free-throw. Our fouls weren't called out of aggressiveness, but just our run of the mill, everyday defense. It's difficult to adjust how you play defense day in-day out. I think it'd be easier to live with if the calls were out of over-aggressiveness or guys trying to make plays.

But conference referees really do tend to call games a certain way. Theres already talk about how Cuse and Pitt will adjust to the ACC based on styles. There were games in the NCAA tournament where Craft was essentially negated defensively because he was not allowed to put pressure on the ball, Wichita St game included. Refs just felt compelled to blow the whistle every time a ball handler had difficulty advancing the ball forward against pressure one on one D.

Again, I'm not trying to rip Michigan. They're a very good team and one of the best offensive teams in the country. My entire point has been that the tournament favored Michigan more than any other Big 10 team because the games are called in a way conducive to their style. They're soft defensively so they didn't have to adjust anything about their game. MSU and OSU were in foul trouble from the tip in these games.

To be 100% truthful in all of this, if you took the average crew in the NCAA Tournament and made them Big 10 conference officials, Michigan is easily the regular season champion. Easily. If Aaron Craft can't breathe on Trey Burke accross the timeline, it's death. Aaron Craft wasn't allowed to play anyone tight this entire tournament. In my eyes it was a joke, but nationally, people hate Big 10 style of play so maybe the Big 10 needs to adjust how they call games. That, or teams like MSU and OSU need to refrain from Big 10 style of play and focus on team defense more conducive to the NCAA tournament even if it is damaging in Big 10 play.

Congrats to Michigan and thanks for repping the Big 10. I'm not trying to knock anybody or any team. It's just an honest observation about how the Big10 calls games vs. the rest of the country. Not having to deal with teams that can clutch, bump, and grind for 40 minutes plays right into Michigan's hands. For such a great offesnive team it has to be a breath of fresh air not being knocked off cuts all game long. Defensively it doesn't impact them at all because they're soft on that side of the ball. They don't do any of that anyways so they're just playing their normal game. In my mind, their softness defensively, has actually helped them because while most Big 10 teams struggled with adjusting to how the games are called, Michigan has just gone about their business, scored with great efficiency, and is playing well.
 
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I think it's historically been a problem for Big Ten teams in the tournament because of the difference in officiating. Teams get too used to being able to get physical with their opponents and then find themselves in foul trouble in the tournament. Michigan benefits this year because they were one of the softest teams in the conference. Might be time for B1G officials to tighten things up a bit in the conference.

I rarely recall, for instance, teams being in the double bonus regularly during conference games - yet, in the tournament, it is an assumed occurrence.
 
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A lot of talk about referees the last couple days. Couch it with "it's not just us, but the entire Big Ten" or "it wasn't just one game, but the entire tournament", and whatever other window dressing and it still sounds like:

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh! The refs screwed us!

Wichita State had a better game plan, was more aggressive from the start, and deserved to win the game.
 
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OH10;2324070; said:
I think it's historically been a problem for Big Ten teams in the tournament because of the difference in officiating. Teams get too used to being able to get physical with their opponents and then find themselves in foul trouble in the tournament. Michigan benefits this year because they were one of the softest teams in the conference. Might be time for B1G officials to tighten things up a bit in the conference.

I rarely recall, for instance, teams being in the double bonus regularly during conference games - yet, in the tournament, it is an assumed occurrence.

This. It's been that way for a long time. It's also why Kruzawooski at Duke has been so successful for so long...he coaches to what calls he knows he will get in the tournament all year.
 
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Jake;2324071; said:
A lot of talk about referees the last couple days. Couch it with "it's not just us, but the entire Big Ten" or "it wasn't just one game, but the entire tournament", and whatever other window dressing and it still sounds like:

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh! The refs screwed us!

Wichita State had a better game plan, was more aggressive from the start, and deserved to win the game.
I don't think anyone is blaming the refs nor just talking about the Wichita game.
 
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Jake;2324071; said:
A lot of talk about referees the last couple days. Couch it with "it's not just us, but the entire Big Ten" or "it wasn't just one game, but the entire tournament", and whatever other window dressing and it still sounds like:

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh! The refs screwed us!

Wichita State had a better game plan, was more aggressive from the start, and deserved to win the game.

Personally I put zero blame on the refs for the Wichita game...but it has been a phenomenon over several decades in general that the Big Ten struggles with foul trouble in the tournament. It happens in football too when other conference officials ref games. It's just what happens.
 
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FCollinsBuckeye;2324058; said:
While I can see where you're coming from to an extent, let's not be "that fanbase" that complains about refs jobbing us.

We were ice cold shooting almost the entire game. We hit better than 25% or whatever it was, we win. Simple as that imo.

I don't want to speak for kippy, but I'm pretty sure you're putting words in his mouth or, at a minimum, you're changing the subject.
 
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Jake;2324071; said:
A lot of talk about referees the last couple days. Couch it with "it's not just us, but the entire Big Ten" or "it wasn't just one game, but the entire tournament", and whatever other window dressing and it still sounds like:

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh! The refs screwed us!

Maybe to those of us who lack reading comprehension skills.

Wichita State had a better game plan, was more aggressive from the start, and deserved to win the game.
I'm pretty sure that's not the point of any of this discussion (and this is coming from someone who hasn't posted in this "a lot of talk about the referees in the last couple days," mind you). If you aren't able to understand the difference between what is being discussed and what you perceive as general whining, perhaps you should exit the thread--you're not adding much here besides your typical moral superiority-laced opinion.
 
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