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SG Luther Muhammad (transfer to Arizona St.)

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OSUBasketballJunkie said:
We are not even close to really competing for a Big Ten title.........

Having two key freshman transfer basically before the season is over is problematic.......heck one was basically given freedom to do whatever he wanted on the court and still wanted out..........
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I remember the over achieving teams in his first years. I remember the over achieving team early this year.

I also know how young people are today and how tenuous that locker room chemistry must be.

Holt is the real deal.
 
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DZ83CK said:
It's a different age in college basketball and society. Matta had a boatload of transfers at the end of his tenure, and he bent over backwards to not recruit over players and be loyal to them. Many kids these days aren't going to stay at one school unless they get everything they want. It is what it is. Holt is doing the right thing and using his 13 scholarships to reload.
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I understand the culture of CBB..........

However, at some point if you want to build towards competing for a Big Ten championship yearly, the 2-3 transfers and in season suspensions have to stop.......

Holtmann brought them in and he has to have a higher success rate on keeping kids in the program and having time for them to develop.......
 
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ShowMeBuck said:
I remember the over achieving teams in his first years. I remember the over achieving team early this year.

I also know how young people are today and how tenuous that locker room chemistry must be.

Holt is the real deal.
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What metrics or known facts point to Holtmann being the right guy for Ohio State?

34-24 record in the Big Ten. I love the guy but what has he done with his own kids?

Matta had a 29-25 record his last three years at Ohio State....

Not much difference as of yet.
 
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OSUBasketballJunkie said:
What metrics or known facts point to Holtmann being the right guy for Ohio State?

34-24 record in the Big Ten. I love the guy but what has he done with his own kids?

Matta had a 29-25 record his last three years at Ohio State....

Not much difference as of yet.
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Matta also missed his last 2 NCAA’s, and his last 3 B1G finishes were 6-7-10, while Holtmann’s teams finished 2-8-5, made the tournament and won games there. That is at least somewhat improved, metrically speaking.
 
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OSUBasketballJunkie said:
What metrics or known facts point to Holtmann being the right guy for Ohio State?

34-24 record in the Big Ten. I love the guy but what has he done with his own kids?

Matta had a 29-25 record his last three years at Ohio State....

Not much difference as of yet.
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Want to bring Coach Ks record early in his career into the discussion? Be patient.

Look, by everyone’s assessment he has over achieved with the rosters he has had so far and yet you are unimpressed because of a flurry of recent transfers?

Just seems incredibly short sided to me.
 
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Let's be real. OSU football is a different animal than basketball. OSU basketball relies on rare Ohio prep stars like Jim Jackson, Michael Redd and Jared Sullinger to take them to the next level, and there are going to be stretches of many years where the team is "just" a good, NCAA tourney-level program. I am not worried in the slightest because guys transfer all the time in college basketball nowadays, and Holt is getting his fair share of good transfers himself.
 
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ShowMeBuck said:
Want to bring Coach Ks record early in his career into the discussion? Be patient.

Look, by everyone’s assessment he has over achieved with the rosters he has had so far and yet you are unimpressed because of a flurry of recent transfers?

Just seems incredibly short sided to me.
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Holtmann is responsible for recruiting these kids into the program and for which resulted in transfers..........I think any criticism he receives is justified in year three.......

He has overachieved? Are our expectations really that low for a program with all the resources they need to consistently be in the top of the Big Ten?

Overachieving in my mind would be winning a Big Ten title or tournament title or possibly reaching a sweet sixteen.......

None of that has occurred and I am pretty confident it will not be happening next year either.....
 
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DZ83CK said:
Let's be real. OSU football is a different animal than basketball. OSU basketball relies on rare Ohio prep stars like Jim Jackson, Michael Redd and Jared Sullinger to take them to the next level, and there are going to be stretches of many years where the team is "just" a good, NCAA tourney-level program.
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And you needed Indiana basketball to not resemble itself and allow Oden, Conley & Thomas to escape.

Imagine an IU program that could secure McRoberts, Oden, Conley, Harangody, Gordon, Zeller, Thomas, Teague, Zeller, Dawson, Etherington.

They kept 2 of those guys home.
 
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OSUBasketballJunkie said:
Holtmann is responsible for recruiting these kids into the program and for which resulted in transfers..........I think any criticism he receives is justified in year three.......

He has overachieved? Are our expectations really that low for a program with all the resources they need to consistently be in the top of the Big Ten?

Overachieving in my mind would be winning a Big Ten title or tournament title or possibly reaching a sweet sixteen.......

None of that has occurred and I am pretty confident it will not be happening next year either.....
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He certainly overachieved in year 1. I'd say that with injuries and some other bad luck (no coach can reasonably be held accountable for a kid's mental health issues unless he's Knight of Majerus or someone like that and caused them), he's met expectations but not exceeded them since. And I think he represents the program well as a person.

As for the program having all the resources they need to consistently be in the top of the Big Ten, I agree, but most of the other programs in the Big Ten have those resources too. This isn't football where our structural advantages and recruiting pull are so great that a mongoloid could consistently coach us to top 3 finishes in the conference. While it seems like Ohio State should have more greatness in its hoops than it does, a long view of history says that for the most part this is about par, or maybe a little better than par, for the program. It's year 3 and, based on program history, replacing Holtmann likely gets OSU a much better chance of doing worse or about the same than it does of doing better. I don't know what Holtmann's ceiling is here, but I'm fairly optimistic about it.
 
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The B1G was brutal this past season and we had a confluence of issues with injuries, suspensions, leaves of absence, appendicitis, etc. But they finished strong and had a good shot at a 5 seed. Won plenty of big games.

The season prior was a full on rebuild trying to replace Keita, Kam, and Tate with a bunch of underclassmen and a grad transfer, but they made the Round of 32.

First season was great and definitely far exceeded expectations, one game shy of winning the B1G.

Thad's glory years will not easily be recreated by any coach, especially not now with the climate around college ball and how good our conference is. But so far, Holtmann is doing a good job, and he is still in the process of getting an experienced roster to his liking with the right balance of skill sets (Sueing might be the first real slasher Holt has had here).

I don't think there is any call for unbridled optimism, but if you're that unhappy with how Holt has managed the program so far, I guess I wonder who you guys want to replace him.
 
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nomatta said:
The B1G was brutal this past season and we had a confluence of issues with injuries, suspensions, leaves of absence, appendicitis, etc. But they finished strong and had a good shot at a 5 seed. Won plenty of big games.

The season prior was a full on rebuild trying to replace Keita, Kam, and Tate with a bunch of underclassmen and a grad transfer, but they made the Round of 32.

First season was great and definitely far exceeded expectations, one game shy of winning the B1G.

Thad's glory years will not easily be recreated by any coach, especially not now with the climate around college ball and how good our conference is. But so far, Holtmann is doing a good job, and he is still in the process of getting an experienced roster to his liking with the right balance of skill sets (Sueing might be the first real slasher Holt has had here).

I don't think there is any call for unbridled optimism, but if you're that unhappy with how Holt has managed the program so far, I guess I wonder who you guys want to replace him.
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Silly question. Archie, of course.
 
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OSUBasketballJunkie said:
I understand the culture of CBB..........

However, at some point if you want to build towards competing for a Big Ten championship yearly, the 2-3 transfers and in season suspensions have to stop.......

Holtmann brought them in and he has to have a higher success rate on keeping kids in the program and having time for them to develop.......
Click to expand...

OSUBasketballJunkie said:
We are not even close to really competing for a Big Ten title.........

Having two key freshman transfer basically before the season is over is problematic.......heck one was basically given freedom to do whatever he wanted on the court and still wanted out..........
Click to expand...

Before Holtmann recruits a player I just wonder how much research he does into the player's personality/character/dedication etc. Carton and Mohammad are very good players, but in hindsight (probably) were not a good fit for the basketball program that he (Holtmann) is running at Ohio State. Needles to say some recruits will readily accept the fact that there is no "I" in team and others just see the letters "ME" in team. Gaffney on the other hand always just wanted to be a "one and done" and never was in it for the "long haul"; however, (basically) he wasn't good enough as a Freshman to have that one good year.
 
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