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The Red Sox Are Coming!!!! The Red Sox Are Coming!!!

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I realize he only has one gold glove but having a career .988 FP as a catcher and also playing during the same era as one of the best defensive cathers in baseball Thurman Munson is nothing to be ashamed of.
 
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Nutty: "Players aren't loyal, owners aren't loyal, and that's fine. Why should fans be?"

First off, I see this point from both sides. Any team, and I mean ANY TEAM is going to have a dip in attendance when they're bad. Heck, even my beloved Evil Empire drew 1.8 million fans when we were deal last in 1990, and they now draw 3 million consistently and will crack the 4 million mark this year. Its only natural. I got so sick of the Yanks futility in '90 that I could barely watch any games after the All-Star Break.

However, in Sears' defense, the big drawback with the Cleveland fans is that they weren't trading on a good reputation before this. They couldn't draw flies in the "Mistake By the Lake," and you couldn't get a seat in the 90's heyday. That's a little extreme, and considering the fact that Cleveland fans claimed to be "the most loyal in baseball" during the heyday, they're only setting themselves up to have salt rubbed in the wound.

They should've drawn more the last couple years. Jacobs Field is a gorgeous ballpark and Cleveland Municipal can't be used as an excuse anymore.
 
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Sloopy45 said:
However, in Sears' defense, the big drawback with the Cleveland fans is that they weren't trading on a good reputation before this. They couldn't draw flies in the "Mistake By the Lake," and you couldn't get a seat in the 90's heyday. That's a little extreme, and considering the fact that Cleveland fans claimed to be "the most loyal in baseball" during the heyday, they're only setting themselves up to have salt rubbed in the wound.

They should've drawn more the last couple years. Jacobs Field is a gorgeous ballpark and Cleveland Municipal can't be used as an excuse anymore.
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I can't and wouldn't even try to refute that. I don't even think attendance at the Jake has been good enough this year considering how good the young guys were playing before that 9 game losing streak they just snapped. Cleveland fans have done plenty of things to be critical of but not filling the Jake after the team was gutted just isn't one of them.
 
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sears: "I realize he only has one gold glove but having a career .988 FP as a catcher and also playing during the same era as one of the best defensive cathers in baseball Thurman Munson is nothing to be ashamed of."

Hey, I'm not saying Fisk wasn't a great player. I enjoyed watching him play and thought he was a helluva player. And by today's standards of relaxed HOF candidacy, maybe he does deserve the Hall.

However, in my eyes, the Hall should be reserved for the ELITE of the ELITE. Names like Ruth, Cobb, Williams, Gehrig, Mays, DiMaggio, Aaron, Banks, Robinson (Frank & Jackie), Mantle, Bench, Jackson, Brett, Hornsby, Speaker, Seaver, Young, etc.

Fisk doesn't belong in the same sentence as any of those players. Just compare Ted Williams' accomplishments to Fisk. Williams won 3 MVPs, 2 Triple Crowns, .406 in '41, 521 career homers, .344 lifetime average, .388 average at age 38, 17 time All-Star, and on and on and on ..

That's what a HOF'er SHOULD be. Fisk wasn't even in the Top 20 players in baseball in any year that he played.
 
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Of course his stats don't stack up with an offensive stud like Teddy Ballgame but they play different positions. Hall-of-fame criteria is vastly different from position to position.

How many catchers out there have put up the same or better career stats than Pudge Fisk?
 
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sears: "How many catchers out there have put up the same or better career stats than Pudge Fisk?"

But that's the point. The HOF should be reserved for the BEST of THE BEST. There' no mandate that should say "there should be 20 catchers in the Hall." It should be reserved for only the elite. If only 5 catchers qualify, then only five should be in. Just because Fisk was a "very good" catcher for a long time doesn't make him a HOF'er.

And as far as position-specific is concerned, none of Fisk's accomplishments even compare with these people:

Bench: TEN Gold Gloves (TEN!!), Rookie of the Year, 2 time MVP, World Series MVP, two HR Titles, 3 RBI Titles .. Fisk can't compare with that.

Berra: Played before the GG, but had THREE MVPs (tied for 2nd most, all-time), 10 World Series rings, and look at his season in 1950: 116 R, 192 H, 30 2B, 28 HR, 124 RBI, and a .322 AVG. Fisk never had a season close to that.

Mickey Cochrane: 2 time MVP, .320 lifetime AVG, .419 lifetime OBP, played in 5 WS and won 3 of them.

Pudge Rodriguez: 10 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP, .304 lifetime, NLCS MVP, and one WS ring.

Campanella: 3 time MVP, played in 5 World Series, and an RBI Title.

Piazza: 7 Top 10 MVP finishes, ROY, .319 lifetime AVG, 10 seasons with 90+ RBI, 2 40 HR seasons, and NINE seasons with 30+ dongs. In '95 to '97, he batted .346, .336, and .362 (.362!!!) for a catcher!!

THOSE, my friend, are HOF Catchers and HOF credentials. I can even argue Catchers who aren't in the HOF against Fisk.
 
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Sears: "All good choices Sloopy but I believe "Pudge" Fisk deserves to be a part of that group. I'm not saying he's the best of 'em all but his accomplishments can't be overlooked."

We can agree to disagree, my man. As long as I don't get started on my Gary Carter-Eddie Murray-Mike Piazza not worthy of HOF rant.
 
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Sloopy45 said:
We can agree to disagree, my man. As long as I don't get started on my Gary Carter-Eddie Murray-Mike Piazza not worthy of HOF rant.
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I agree. :biggrin:

Start a thread about the current playoff picture in the AL, and wind up debating the HOF credentials of Pudge Fisk. Strange.
 
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sears3820 said:
Chicago? Their fans couldn't care any less if they win or not. As long as the beer's cold at Wrigley.

Cleveland? Their fans true colors showed when they Mark Shapiro took over and started dumping salary. They couldn't even fill up half of the Jake. Biggest group of fair-weather fans I've ever seen.
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455 sell-outs in a row. With our weather. Think about that. And Fisk is not the all-time HR leader for catchers, Piazza is.
 
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