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What kind of car do you drive?

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kujirakira said:
Most those cars will have limited runs and therefore not make much of a dent w/ Tesla.
The problems Tesla have are numerous though:
- While these limited runs wont affect Tesla sales much, other companies wont need to pay 200mil / quarter for ZEV credits. And without that, there goes their 300mil profit.
- cant make the 35k car at profit -> limited demand at 49k+
- They exhausted demand at 49k in Q2
- Q3 margins were a one-time thing as they sold all the 70k trim levels and exhausted that demand
- Now they're stripping batteries to make a 45k compromise... but margins will be even lower than Q2 (they lost a lot of money)
- Q3 was also propped up by a 1time 800mil sale of all their dealership loaners to Enterprise... theyve spun it as a new car sale but its actually a divestiture of assets and Enterprise will make that back every time Tesla pays them to provide a car during warranty work
- Speaking of warranty... theyre shipping cars with repairs already scheduled.
- in Norway - previously a huge market for them - theyve gained a reputation similar to Alfa Romeo
- Trade war has cut China off completely. They made something like 10 sales there.
- While theyre in a cash crisis with a ton of debt due Q1 of 2019, they have given up on capex, expanding service centers (see what happened in Norway repeating w/ US consumers), and dont even have the means to offer leases (the name of the game in the luxury segments that Three competes in)
- Theyre open to legal action regarding the fraudulent "Full Self Driving" package they've been selling for 5k that is not functional and never will be.
- All the false advertising on 35k pricepoint could also be interesting



Things Tesla has going for them:
- An irrational cult like following not unlike Apple.
Click to expand...

Was just at Karma's HQ a couple of weeks ago for meetings. Talk about cult like following. Interesting stuff. Still no replacement for displacement. Pretty cars though. Beautiful lines on the Revero. Some pretty lines on some of the Teslas too. I'll still take my Audi... and my next Audi before the Tesla or Karma.
 
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Dryden said:
The Apple cult can at least justify the premium by pointing to an unusually superb track record of fit, finish, and packaging.

Tesla spent the summer assembling cars by hand in refugee tents in the desert because their factory didn’t work, so I’ve seen Teslas where quarter panels had uneven gaps and doors weren’t hung evenly.

Tesla’s cult is tied almost entirely to the cult of Musk and the stock price. Nothing Tesla has done or will ever do justifies a valuation at more than a 10x multiple like any other car company.

Musks genius, at least in regards to Tesla, was making a sporty EV that looks like a Nissan 4 door sedan instead of following every other company, who apparently thinks the EV market should only cater to lovers of 2 door hatchbacks that look like aquariums with wheels.

If Toyota decides to make an EV Solara tomorrow, that’d put a massive dent in Tesla.
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That was the biggest shock to me in getting into a 100K Tesla was that the interior fit and quality were horrible. Forget comparing it to other similarly priced Kraut cars, this wasn't close to even the old VW Tiguan (still dollar for dollar probably the best car I've ever owned) that I had a decade ago. If you couldn't do something as simple as get a decent fit on the glovebox, I have to wonder how well the mechanical aspects are being assembled.

Regarding your last sentence, I think the strategy of the real automakers has been to let Tesla do the early heavy lifting, take the inevitable massive losses and then when the time is ripe, brush Tesla out of the way and take over the segment. And I think with the Audi/VW strategy, that day will be in the next couple of years.
 
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sparcboxbuck said:
Was just at Karma's HQ a couple of weeks ago for meetings. Talk about cult like following. Interesting stuff. Still no replacement for displacement. Pretty cars though. Beautiful lines on the Revero. Some pretty lines on some of the Teslas too. I'll still take my Audi... and my next Audi before the Tesla or Karma.
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I've been a VW then Audi owner since I started having a car again in the late 00s. And knowing what I know now about how Tesla's factories are run, there's no way I'd trade my union built, German made Audi for some piece of crap coming out of his sweatshops.
 
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Taosman said:
I watched an interesting vid on German cars use of direct injection engines and thier carbon buildup issues. As much as I would like a small BMW or Audi I'll pass.
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Was a limited set of engines that had the issue. The B7 RS4 (can’t recall a b6 RS4, but would have shared the same plant if it exists) was known for the issue. When I purchased my B7 S4 I seriously considered the RS4 but passed due to availability of the RS4s. Basically a long waiting list to get a cabriolet with the options I wanted. Anyhow, knew of the problem and for the performance increase, a little maintenance is easily justified. My S4, before tuning, snapped my neck at 340 horse. With tuning its right at the stock RS4... just a little less at 410 where the RS4 is 420 and the jump from 340 to 400+ is not only noticeable, but would have been worth the few grand to foam the engine every couple of years... especially since mine is a garage queen.

You have to remember, these aren’t stuffed in cars that are daily drivers - keep gas and oil in it and forget - kind of cars. You buy a car with that engine knowing that you’re buying a high performance engine that will require maintenance. If you want to not think about what you’re driving, there’s plenty of grocery getters available from Audi that have all the show and far less of the go.

The new S6 and even better RS6 which isn’t stateside has had a stellar record for reliability. Cite that example as the S4/5s are on the turbo 6 plant as the 6s are now the V8s. If I ever start driving much again, within a week I’ll have a new S6 in the garage and likely tarp the S4. Like @ORD_Buckeye, I’m that pleased with the performance / luxury combination.
 
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Onebuckfan said:
Apple prints money..Tesla hemorrhages money.
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Tesla is a "battery" company. They have outstanding technology in battery developement and design. But to your point....
https://theweek.com/articles/753979/tesla-hemorrhaging-money-what

Where are Apple products made? Mongolia, China, Korea and Taiwan
https://www.google.com/search?q=whe...e..69i57j0.12858j1j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
The company signs all its products, "Designed by Apple in California," but in the U.S., design is as far as Apple is willing to go. The tech giant outsources hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs to countries like Mongolia, China, Korea and Taiwan.Sep 11, 2013]

Where are Tesla cars made? USA
https://www.tesla.com/about
 
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sparcboxbuck said:
You have to remember, these aren’t stuffed in cars that are daily drivers - keep gas and oil in it and forget - kind of cars. You buy a car with that engine knowing that you’re buying a high performance engine that will require maintenance. If you want to not think about what you’re driving, there’s plenty of grocery getters available from Audi that have all the show and far less of the go.
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And this is why I've never really been able to break out of Nissan. They put out bullet proof 6cyls decade after decade with good power. The VQ35 in mine doesn't make much torque; but the electric motor makes that up adding 200ftlbs torque - and b/c it's behind the tranny it's always instant 100% torque available (unlike the Teslas and other EVs w/no trans where torque drops off a cliff somewhere around 90-100).
Throw in more autonomous tech than the A4 or S4... and I was sold. Maybe if Audi had offered a HUD on those models; but they didn't.

Taosman said:
Tesla is a "battery" company. They have outstanding technology in battery developement and design.
Click to expand...

Panasonic does all their batteries. Not cutting edge either - the 18650 PFs they use are about 2 generations behind. But I'll give them this... it's the one part they use with really good reliability. The other big EV names mostly use junk batteries; particularly Nissan and Chevy.
 
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kujirakira said:
And this is why I've never really been able to break out of Nissan. They put out bullet proof 6cyls decade after decade with good power. The VQ35 in mine doesn't make much torque; but the electric motor makes that up adding 200ftlbs torque - and b/c it's behind the tranny it's always instant 100% torque available (unlike the Teslas and other EVs w/no trans where torque drops off a cliff somewhere around 90-100).
Throw in more autonomous tech than the A4 or S4... and I was sold. Maybe if Audi had offered a HUD on those models; but they didn't.



Panasonic does all their batteries. Not cutting edge either - the 18650 PFs they use are about 2 generations behind. But I'll give them this... it's the one part they use with really good reliability. The other big EV names mostly use junk batteries; particularly Nissan and Chevy.
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I owned a few Maximas in my day. Back around the mid 90s. They were about as set it and forget it as any car I’ve owned... including an Acura (‘06) TL MT6 that was a complete piece of shit which was a huge disappointment from Acura. The 16 year old is driving a ‘11 MDX he inherited from the wife when we got her a Q7. Drove the MDX from Chicago to Indy last night. With roughly 90k on the clock and a full maintenance record, it still drives like new. Passed some trucks last night as we were cruising at around 75-80 and it pulled strong well into the 90s while I made my pass. Have a lot of good things to say about that car / platform.

Still, all things considered, I don’t get excited to drive the MDX. Every time I turn the key on the Audis in the garage, it’s different. Especially the S4 because it still a little untamed. The Germans produce a different level of sport and luxury and the build, fit and finish are not even comparable.

Should also note, the C63 AMG has my attention. I’d get my balls cut off if I brought that home though. I still catch some shit about the S4 Cab being too small for a golf weekend for two people. But the C63 AMG is damn sexy. I like that far more than anything in the BMW fleet. Although, I’d be hard pressed to turn away a M5/6. If given an M4 I’d use it as a down payment on the C63 if I were to buy something not Audi.
 
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Taosman said:
Tesla is a "battery" company. They have outstanding technology in battery developement and design. But to your point....
https://theweek.com/articles/753979/tesla-hemorrhaging-money-what

Where are Apple products made? Mongolia, China, Korea and Taiwan
https://www.google.com/search?q=where+are+Apple+products+built?&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS689US706&oq=where+are+Apple+products+built?&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.12858j1j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
The company signs all its products, "Designed by Apple in California," but in the U.S., design is as far as Apple is willing to go. The tech giant outsources hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs to countries like Mongolia, China, Korea and Taiwan.Sep 11, 2013]

Where are Tesla cars made? USA
https://www.tesla.com/about
Click to expand...

I'm no apple fanboy, and their outsourcing/manufacturing policies are reprehensible. That being said, Musk's factories are no 1960s UAW shops either. By all accounts they have more in common with an Amazon warehouse than they do with an auto factory in Germany, Japan or the midwest, and don't underestimate how fast this guy would move his manufacturing to China. He's already half in bed with them already, and all Chinese teslas will soon be made in a Chinese factory with the required Chinese partners and inevitable technology transfers, which is doubly disgusting since much of it is the result of government and university basic research.
 
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sparcboxbuck said:
I owned a few Maximas in my day. Back around the mid 90s. They were about as set it and forget it as any car I’ve owned... including an Acura (‘06) TL MT6 that was a complete piece of shit which was a huge disappointment from Acura. The 16 year old is driving a ‘11 MDX he inherited from the wife when we got her a Q7. Drove the MDX from Chicago to Indy last night. With roughly 90k on the clock and a full maintenance record, it still drives like new. Passed some trucks last night as we were cruising at around 75-80 and it pulled strong well into the 90s while I made my pass. Have a lot of good things to say about that car / platform.

Still, all things considered, I don’t get excited to drive the MDX. Every time I turn the key on the Audis in the garage, it’s different. Especially the S4 because it still a little untamed. The Germans produce a different level of sport and luxury and the build, fit and finish are not even comparable.

Should also note, the C63 AMG has my attention. I’d get my balls cut off if I brought that home though. I still catch some shit about the S4 Cab being too small for a golf weekend for two people. But the C63 AMG is damn sexy. I like that far more than anything in the BMW fleet. Although, I’d be hard pressed to turn away a M5/6. If given an M4 I’d use it as a down payment on the C63 if I were to buy something not Audi.
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Yea, the Skyline is more like the S4. Cruised to Indy last year doing 120. Funny enough, got questioned at the gas station on the way back by a cop who thought it was an Audi... pretty sure somebody called me in. Only car there at 2 AM, come back from the bathroom and see him parked in front standing outside. Starts with "Nice looking Audi there. I bet it goes real fast?" ... chilled out the rest of the way home :no:
 
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