Why is Dubya too scared to testify?

BuckeyeSoldier · Mar 12, 2004

im not gonna argue the right and wrong of ur beliefs, but i do wanna maybe clear something up a little bit, have you ever been in the military? Im afraid that one year mandatory service isnt going to instill the hardwork and values you are hoping.. granted my experience is all from the army so i wont speak for the others, but basically the army is a communism.. ie no incentive to work, especially if you are only going to be in for one year anyway.. i know WAY too many ppl who are career soldiers simply because they found an easy job and dont want to stop sucking on the governments tit. basic training is all right and good for giving em the hardcore attitude, but once they hit the job where they arent on commision and cant be fired.... laziness sets in, the only reason our army functions properly is because we have the powerhouse capitalism to shovel billions of dollars into it... hope i didnt piss of mililani cuz i know not everyone is like this and in fact most arent.. but im also sure he knows what im tlaking about.

MililaniBuckeye · Mar 12, 2004

What cracks me up about liberals is their "Right to Choose" position on abortion. I'm far from being a conservative, but I don't see how having the "right" to wantonly slaughter your unborn child is considered a "choice". To me, the "right to choose" means a woman can decide "Hey, I'd like to have a baby" and the government not being able to step in and say, "Sorry, but you can't have a baby because there are too many babies right now" or, "You can't have a baby because your standard of living isn't good enough", etc. It also means that that same woman can say "I don't want to have a baby" and choose not to get pregnant, and the government can't come in and say, "Sorry, but we're running short on people in the 0-18 age range, so all able women will bear a minimum of two children." China was either going to, or did, implement a national birth control program, putting a quota on the amount of children a woman can birth. Now that violates a woman's right to choose. Conversely, getting an abortion just because having a baby is "inconvenient" or "wasn't in my plans" amounts to nothing more the murder. But what pisses me off most is when a teenager throws her newborn into the dumpster to die and gets caught, she gets a couple years, if that, and then is turned loose, while someone killing some old 85-year-old **** who is barely aware if his/her own existence gets 20-to-life.

America is without a doubt the most self-centered country that ever existed.

(edit)

Whoa, I just read Soldier's just above mine (looks like he posted it while I was typing the original part of this post). Sounds like Soldier is in a bad unit and hasn't been in long enough to see a real unit function. Yeah, each branch of the military has its leeches, but so does the civil service part of DoD (actually, even moreso than active military), and also government contractors (of which I now am). It's also just as bad on the outside, where folks get into big companies, suck up to their boss, back stab co-workers, and get cemented into their position. Keep in mind that civilian companies offer 401k options (military just recently started a watered-down version which doesn't come close to the average civilian 401k). Also, virtually no civilians are ever sent away to deployments for 3-12 months at a time involuntarily, and those that are indeed subject to such relocation are free to quit their job...those in the military don't have that option. If Soldier is seeing some ROADies (Retired On Active Duty), then the fault lies in the supervisors of those ROADies for not disciplining them or even denying them reenlistment.

I personally think mandatory military service of 3-4 years is a great idea.

LightningRod · Mar 12, 2004

This administration just can't seem to keep out of the spotlight.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="99%">AP: Rumsfeld, FBI Official Kept 9-11 Items
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</td> </tr></tbody> </table> <table width="420" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr valign="middle"> <td width="40%">   36 minutes ago
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</td><td nowrap="nowrap" width="99%"> Add White House - AP Cabinet & State to My Yahoo!</td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody> </table>  [size=-1]By JOHN SOLOMON, Associated Press Writer[/size]

WASHINGTON - [size=-1] The Justice Department (news - web sites) investigation that criticized FBI (news - web sites) agents for taking souvenirs from the World Trade Center site also found that Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and a high-ranking FBI official kept items from the Sept. 11 attack scenes. [/size]

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</td> <td width="99%"> Slideshow: September 11</td> </tr></tbody></table>
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[size=-1] The final investigatory report said the Justice Department inspector general confirmed Rumsfeld "has a piece of the airplane that flew into the Pentagon (news - web sites)." The Associated Press obtained a copy of the report Friday. [/size]

[size=-1] Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said Friday night that Rumsfeld has a shard of metal from the jetliner that struck the Pentagon on a table in his office and shows it to people as a reminder of the tragedy Pentagon workers shared on Sept. 11, 2001. [/size]

[size=-1] "He doesn't consider it his own," Di Rita said, adding the piece is on display for the Pentagon. "We are mindful of the fact that if somebody has an evidentiary requirement to have this shard of metal, we will provide it to them." [/size]

[size=-1] The Justice Department investigation also collected testimony that Pasquale D'Amuro, FBI Director Robert Mueller's executive assistant director for terrorism until last summer, asked a supervisory agent to "obtain a half dozen items from the WTC debris so the items could be given to dignitaries." [/size]

[size=-1] Six items — none needed as evidence — were gathered and sent to D'Amuro, the report said. [/size]

[size=-1] D'Amuro, now the head of the FBI's New York office, told investigators that "he asked for a piece of the building as a memento" and that he was aware that agents had taken such items from other terrorist crime scenes over the years. [/size]

[size=-1] He said he got a piece of the building in June 2003 but denied asking for items for dignitaries. D'Amuro left the following month from FBI headquarters as Mueller's top terrorism official to become an assistant director in charge of the New York office. [/size]

[size=-1] Joe Valiquette, a spokesman for the New York FBI office, declined to comment Friday. [/size]

[size=-1] The report also divulged that FBI agents' removal of items like a Tiffany crystal globe from the World Trade Center rubble gutted a criminal case the bureau was building against a Minnesota contractor that had taken a fire truck door from the same rubble. [/size]

[size=-1] Prosecutors told the FBI they "might not indict the crime regarding the fire truck door due to government misconduct involving the Tiffany globe," the report said. [/size]

[size=-1] Surviving family members were surprised by the latest news. [/size]

[size=-1] "Unbelievable," said William Doyle, whose son was killed in the World Trade Center. [/size]

[size=-1] "Everybody has things that they probably should not have from the World Trade Center site," added Sally Regenhard, whose firefighter son died in the towers. "I'm sure there's probably all kinds of people that have all kinds of artifacts." [/size]

[size=-1] The Justice Department's report has not been officially released, but heavily deleted versions of the report began circulating around Washington last month showing 13 FBI agents had taken rubble, debris and items such as flags and a Tiffany crystal globe paperweight. [/size]

[size=-1] The bureau announced it was banning agents from taking items from crimes scenes, but no agents were being charged with crimes because the bureau did not have such a policy during the Sept. 11 investigation. [/size]

[size=-1] The full report obtained by the AP divulges some senior FBI managers were among those cited for having authorized or asked for mementos from the World Trade Center site. [/size]

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[size=-1] In addition to D'Amuro, the report stated the now-retired head of the New York FBI office, Barry Mawn, asked and received an American flag and a piece of marble from the debris before his retirement. [/size]

[size=-1]The report also states the special agent in charge of the FBI's office in Knoxville, Tenn., Joe Clark, contacted FBI officials in New York requesting a piece of debris to display in an exhibit dealing with hate crimes. A 100-pound piece of steel was sent to Clark, the report said. [/size]

[size=-1]The report stated FBI agents who worked in New York repeatedly expressed their disgust that visiting agents and supervisors would seek souvenirs from the terrorist attacks. [/size]

[size=-1]Many interviewed regarded the debris as sacred, the reported stated, "and were disgusted by the fact that anyone would want to take items, including pieces of the building which were contaminated with blood and human body parts." [/size]

[size=-1]The report discloses that among the items taken, agents had cut World Trade Center security patches from the sleeves of shirt pieces found in the rubble. [/size]

[size=-1]One New York agent who worked on the evidence recovery team "stated it was a ghoulish prospect that anyone would want things from a crime scene where people have died," the report said. [/size]

[size=-1]Two senior FBI lawyers from New York told the investigators they were never consulted by FBI managers about the propriety of taking items, and they would have objected. [/size]

[size=-1]The FBI New York office's ethics officer, Steven Carolotto, "emphatically stated FBI agents could not profit from working any location" and the "calamity of the event was inconsistent with the taking of items for personal use." [/size]

[size=-1]Investigators also stated that they found evidence that the agent who ran the recovery effort at the landfill, Richard Marx of Philadelphia, gave "inconsistent" answers during the investigation after several colleagues claimed he had given them permission to take items. [/size]

[size=-1]Last summer, Marx was subjected to a lie detector test in which he said he did not recall giving items to Mawn, did not recall giving permission for evidence recovery agents to take items and insisted he was completely true when he gave an affidavit to the investigation. [/size]

[size=-1]"The results of the examination indicated that Marx was deceptive in his responses to all three questions," the Justice report said. FBI officials declined to comment about Marx's conduct. [/size]

[size=-1]___ [/size]

[size=-1]On the Net: [/size]

[size=-1]Excerpts of documents available at: http://wid.ap.org/documents/documents/911souvenirs1.pdf [/size]

BuckBackHome · Mar 12, 2004

Just read BSoldier's post and was a bit surprised. I never served and appreciate the hell out of what any person who served has sacrificed for me and really, all of us. I have to say that my brother was four years active duty with the Marines and I never heard him once mention anything close to being lazy or even bored when he was in. He wanted to stay in longer, but they would not guarantee him the assignment he wanted.

Also, I have never heard of a one-year enlistment. How does something like that work?

gbearbuck · Mar 12, 2004

buckeyebri,

Yea, I'm a moderate (actually I'm an independant... I don't want junk mail/phone calls from either party).

buckeyesoldier,

no, I have not served in the military. I do have several family memeber on my side that served (actually over half the males did service in some way/shape/form), and my father-in-law is a retired officer (carrer military man) of the AirForce.

While in college I did take three ROTC classes (easy A, got to repel off a six story building using swiss harnesses, shot M-16's (don't like guns, however that was actually a fun experiance... except for the sarg. who had his pistol out, and if any of us turned our guns in any direction except the target, we were told we would get a bullet in the back of our head :yow1:

). The classes were very informative, and even at that level, they demanded respect and disipline.

I am of the mindset that military service brings disipline. If I'm wrong, then the idea doesn't work... it is soley based on that.

Mili,

If a lady is raped, has pregnancy problems, has the baby with a realitive, etc. I want the lady to be able to abort the child. Again, I would never abort my own child, however I don't feel I have the right to tell somebody else what they can/can not do in regards to abortion. It is also my feeling that even if abortions are illegal, folks will still do it. The people that perform these illegal abortions more than likely will not be doctors, so the risk of injuring/killing the lady would be large IMO... In effect I think it would work as well as prohibition (folks that want it will get it... in a much less controled environment, with risks to themselves).

BuckinMich.,

To my knowledge there is not a one-year enlistment... it is just one of my "ideas/view"...

BuckeyeInTheBoro · Mar 12, 2004

It confuses me that so many people are pro-gun and anti-abortion or pro-abortion but anti-gun.

"I'm for the death of babies, but killing grown-ups makes me squeamish."

or

"Why can't someone save all these innocnt unborn children so they can be raised to get shot in a drive-by."

Just strikes me ironic. Throw the death penalty in there and it gets even more contradictory.

Me? Kill the criminals, protect the helpless and keep them both from getting guns!

gbearbuck · Mar 13, 2004

Boro,

I know it is weird... I don't like guns, and I don't like abortions... however I'm ok with telling people they can not have guns... I'm not ok with telling people that they can not have an abortion if they want one.

Maybe this is why the politicians vote differently on what on the surface appears to be the same issue...??

LightningRod · Mar 13, 2004

The White House isn't having a very good week. I love election time - it's like Clemenza said in the Godfather - you need a war every 5 years to get rid of bad blood.

[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=+1]Official Says He Was Told to Withhold Medicare Data [/size][/font]
By Amy Goldstein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, March 13, 2004; Page A01



<nitf>The government's longtime chief analyst of Medicare costs said yesterday that Bush administration officials threatened to fire him last year if he disclosed to Congress that he believed the prescription drug legislation favored by the White House would prove far more expensive than lawmakers had been told.</nitf>

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</td></tr></tbody> </table> <noscript></td></tr></table></noscript> <nitf>Richard S. Foster, a nonpartisan Department of Health and Human Services official who has been Medicare's chief actuary for nine years, said he nearly resigned in protest because he thought the top Medicare administrator, and perhaps White House officials, were acting against the public interest by withholding information about how much changes to the program would cost.</nitf>

<nitf>"Certainly, Congress did not have all the information they might have wanted, or that we had," Foster said in an interview. </nitf>

<nitf>He said Thomas A. Scully, then administrator of the HHS agency that oversees Medicare, repeatedly told him last spring and summer that Foster would be fired if he complied with requests from Republican and Democratic lawmakers to provide cost estimates of various aspects of the prescription drug legislation. Although other HHS officials ultimately assured him his job was safe, Foster said, the administration's practice of withholding budget predictions continued until the legislation was enacted in November.</nitf>

<nitf> Foster is regarded in government and policy circles as a competent and neutral civil servant. His disclosure set off the latest escalation of a partisan war over Medicare that has been playing out since Congress adopted the largest expansion in the history of the health insurance program for the elderly.</nitf>

<nitf> Yesterday, congressional Democrats called for an ethics investigation and dispatched a bitter letter to President Bush, who frequently cites the new Medicare law as one of his proudest domestic accomplishments. Senate Minority Leader Thomas A. Daschle (D-S.D.) demanded a new vote on the measure, which barely passed the House and Senate, saying that "members of Congress were called to vote under false pretenses."</nitf>

<nitf>A Republican who helped forge the law, Senate Finance Committee Chairman Charles E. Grassley (Iowa), joined in the criticism. He said, "Government analysts with relevant information should never be muzzled."</nitf>

<nitf>The controversy over Foster's threatened dismissal, reported yesterday by the Knight Ridder news service, erupted several weeks after the White House acknowledged that the administration's cost estimates for the law were significantly higher than the ones lawmakers had relied on.</nitf>

<nitf>Bush had said he was willing to spend as much as $400 billion for the drug benefits and other Medicare changes during the next decade, and the Congressional Budget Office, the official fiscal advisers to Congress, predicted the law would cost $395 billion.</nitf>

<nitf> In late January, the White House said separate calculations, provided by Foster, indicated the law would cost $534 billion. The revelation provoked an outcry from Democrats and conservative Republicans concerned that the drug benefits would deepen the federal deficit.</nitf>

<nitf>Internal documents and federal officials made clear that the White House had known of the higher cost estimates for months. Until now, it has not been apparent the lengths to which Bush aides who negotiated the bill with Congress went to keep the figures private.</nitf>

<nitf>Foster, who was deputy chief actuary for the Social Security Administration for 13 years before becoming the chief Medicare actuary in 1995, said his office has a tradition of providing technical assistance to Congress "on an independent, nonpartisan basis."</nitf>

<nitf> But last June, he said, Scully directed him to "cease responding directly to Congress" and to funnel all cost estimates to Scully to decide which ones would be released. "More than once, Tom said he was just following orders," Foster said, adding he did not know where the orders came from but believed they might have originated in the White House.</nitf>

<nitf>Late that month, Foster dispatched an e-mail to several senior assistants and private actuaries in which he called the situation "nightmarish." He wrote: "I'm perhaps no longer in grave danger of being fired, but there remains a strong likelihood that I will have to resign in protest of the withholding of important technical information from key policy makers for political reasons." He said he decided to stay at his staff's urging. </nitf>

<nitf>Yesterday, HHS officials portrayed the matter as a conflict between Foster and Scully, who left the government for private consulting jobs a few months ago. "Those two just clearly did not get along," said Kevin Keane, assistant secretary for public affairs. "To suggest it's anyone else is way out of line."</nitf>

<nitf>Scully said in an interview he had only once forbidden Foster to release information. It would have been in response to a request from the staff of a liberal Democrat, Rep. Fortney "Pete" Stark (Calif.), who wanted to know the effect on Medicare premiums of a form of private-sector competition with the program that had been deleted from the House bill at the time of the request. Scully said the request was designed to "blow up the Medicare bill over something that wasn't even in there anymore."</nitf>

<nitf>Foster said that was not the only request that Scully blocked. "I tried to persuade him this was not in the public interest, but I was not successful," Foster said.</nitf>

<nitf> Stark aides said yesterday that the provision was in the bill when they asked for the information. Another congressional Democratic aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said that Foster sometimes conveyed information by telephone, but that White House officials routinely were on the line and sometimes instructed Foster not to answer questions.</nitf>

<nitf> </nitf>


<script>  </script> <center> © 2004 The Washington Post Company</center>

BuckeyeSoldier · Mar 13, 2004

Hmmm.. oh the military service thing, mili is right there is no one year contract, shortest you can get that i know of is two years and thats to be infintry.... ill give a lil and admit that the side of the army im seeing is probally watered down being that i am a "medical labrotory technician" and havent been to a field unit or infinitry unit.. but did go to fort benning ga for basic which i keep being told is the most hardcore basic training in the army and as far as i was concerned that was even a cakewalk, sure it sucks but it wasnt actually something that i would be worried about ANYONE not being able to do.. maybe im expecting too much but i do get annoyed with the laziness i have seen, and i dont like the fact that cooks and gas pumpers get paid more than jobs like mine, i grew up on a farm so i guess maybe i just expect too much from these other guys i dont like seeing fat, lazy, and stupid people getting promoted because someone "hooked them up" and gave them all 100 scores on their pt test or awards or rifle range..

the marines supposed to be more hardcore and do seem to push that mentality a little more so maybe ur brother didnt have the same issues...
now let me clarify real quick, im not saying dont support the troops or anything ridiculous like that, despite all ive said, the sacrafice to givnig up 3 to 20 years of your life to protect your country and be away from your family still deserves admiration...
oh, and just to put my 2 cents in, im pro gun(if you look at stats taking away guns actually tends to increase areas crime rates), pro death penalty(yup, we are responsible for our actions and at some point prison just doesnt cut it) and im pro choice,(although i could never have one or even condone one, i dont believe the option should not be theirs)

buckiprof · Mar 13, 2004

I too am pro choice and by and large opposed to the death penalty/guns. On the surface it does appear to be contradictory. Years ago I had to reconcile these seemingly contradictory beliefs, since I do believe that life is precious and the taking of a life is usually wrong. And here is the rationale that allowed me to do just that: An unborn fetus up to say 3 months is a potential human. Once born, we have an actual human. Actuality outweighs potentiality. (This line of thinking may be borrowed from Plato, I'm not sure.) This allowed me to reconcile by position on the abortion issue as well as death penalty.

gbear - Well, you were right about some of your views being harsh. But it is great that you have the freedom (at least still do) to express them. As my screen name alludes to, I am a college professor. And I can say that your idea of a short stint in the military for hs graduates to help teach discipline isn't so radical. I see too many bright 18 and 19 year olds that do not succeed due to laziness, or poor time management skills, or trying to go to school full-time and work full-time. (I think the latter is due to not understanding the concept of delayed gratification). I don't know if a 2-year stint in the military would help or not, but it allows for a good debate.

Finally, it is nice to see civilized discussion on this topic here at BP. There are differing opinions but it appears that all respect the fact that different people can and do have different opinions. But maybe that's because Nixon only posted once and then lappears to have left the thread :wink2:

. Good luck in finding this type of adult discussion at another unnamed buckeye site.

Nixon · Mar 13, 2004

Excuse me, but where in the hell did I say that you weren't allowed to hold your opinions? Where did I call you names?

Apparently its only "adult discussion" if all the participants love taxes, are pro-abortion, and anti-guns. Way to be an "open minded liberal".

buckiprof · Mar 13, 2004

Nixon said:
Excuse me, but where in the hell did I say that you weren't allowed to hold your opinions? Where did I call you names?

Apparently its only "adult discussion" if all the participants love taxes, are pro-abortion, and anti-guns. Way to be an "open minded liberal".

Obviously you didn't see the little winking emoticon. This means "just kidding". But way to respond with a typical ultra-conservative (your words describing you) attack with the classic "opened minded liberal" label to describe someone who is middle of the road (my words describing me). Would you describe anyone who opposed going to war in Iraq, or criticizng the administration for leading the country there with at best a pretense based on bad information, as being "unpatriotic"?

BuckeyeSoldier · Mar 13, 2004

hey buckiprof, its been a while since ive been in a poly sci class so in todays political spectrum what party do i fall closest to im just curious? im pro choice, pro gun, pro death penalty, pro civil rights, anti patriot act, pro legalization of marijauna (and no i dont even drink CAFFEINE, so im not a stoner whoever just jumped to that conclusion... i dunno who it was but i heard ya land so i know ya jumped :p ) , anti flat-tax, ummm any other major issues ya need to figure it out? ive always called myself an independant try to actually know who believes in what im voting for but is there a party that follows at least close these beliefs?

Nixon · Mar 13, 2004

I only used the words "open minded liberal" because you claimed that ultraliberals were more open minded than ultra conservatives. As for the winky thing, that does not to me erase the surrounding sentances and their implication.

BuckBackHome · Mar 13, 2004

Buckeyesoldier,

You are the worst kind of voter: One that cannot be easily classified as one party or the other. Based on what you listed you are not a Right-Wing Radical nor a Yellow Dog Democrat (still one of my favorite political terms). You are probably more like what many voters are becoming: a hybrid of both parties.

The parties have a tough time adjusting to that. They need the moderate votes to get elected, but then need to move back (right or left) to make their party mainstays happy. The problem then comes at reelection when the moderates remember what you did or did not too that you were supposed to in order to receive their vote in the first place.

Why is Dubya too scared to testify?

BuckeyeSoldier

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gbearbuck

Herbie for President

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gbearbuck

Herbie for President

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buckiprof

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Nixon

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