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Yet another annoying thread - 500 posts!

Sloopy,

I'm retarded. I've been going off on this tangent comparing Ross and Gamble, when all along I've been thinking of Doss, not Ross. That's where the 4 year starter and safety position comments came from. Forget everything from my above post, or else substitute the name "Doss" for "Ross", and it will actually make some semblance of sense. I apologize for what appeared to be completely idiotic comments. The stat's I was referring to, by the way, are pretty much just what I mentioned. Gamble did have a great defensive year in 2002, but really he had a poor year in 2003. Again, I don't think this hurts his draft status a whole lot, as he proved he can cover anyone on the planet in 2002, but IMO he had a much worse year in 2003, probably because he was asked to learn the entire defense, including all of their zone packages. I read somewhere that Gamble gave up more TD's than any other CB in the Big 10. I don't know if that is true, but he definitely gave up more than anyone else on the team, and consistently bit on the "double-move", getting burned deep. But again, this is a player that didn't have hardly any experience, and as such, I think he did an outstanding job. His potential is obvious, and college players are drafted on potential, but most of them have PROVEN themselves to be STUDS in CFB, especially ones that are drafted early. Gamble proved a lot in 2002, but if you look at performance in 03, he doesn't look like a "shut-down" corner on paper. I can't say this enough--I really think he will be a great NFL corner, but I don't see him getting drafted in the first round when he has such limited experience compared to other "proven" college CB's. I do not think that Gamble showed he was a good tackler, or a hard hitter, or even that great of a cover corner in 03. But he did show the ability to develop all of those skills (which are learned skills anyway), and he exhibited his natural talent and ability to play CB (which can NOT be taught). Once he has some more good coaching and experience, he'll be the great player you believe him to be now. But, IMO, you won't see that in 2004.
 
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FKA: "all along I've been thinking of Doss, not Ross"

No sweat, my man. I see your argument a bit clearer, but I don't think its a fair comparison, because they play different positions. Good safeties are a dime a dozen, and usually don't get taken high unless you're a super stud pro prospect, a la Sean Taylor or Roy Williams. Cornerbacks tend to get drafted ahead of those guys because a shut-down CB is hard to find, while a good safety is probably the easiest position to fill in the NFL right now.

"Gamble did have a great defensive year in 2002, but really he had a poor year in 2003."

I disagree. Poor for his standards? Maybe. But those standards are pretty lofty .. I thought Gamble had one bad play against Whisky, and a bad half against scUM. Other than that, I think he had a fine season compared to anyone else but himself.

"he had a much worse year in 2003, probably because he was asked to learn the entire defense, including all of their zone packages"

I don't think Gamble had a tough time learning the packages at all. I think the reason behind the drop-off was, IMO, that he looked bored out there. He knew that no one could beat him in pure coverage, so he took a lot of chances and got burned on some (as a lot of elite CBs will do - Rod Woodson did this a lot in his Steeler days), and D'Antonio's scheme calls for a lot of funky blitzes where the DEs drop into coverage and CBs blitz. On most of those Defensive calls, Gamble did the right thing, but his man caught the ball because he wasn't in coverage. My Dad had a huge problem with this over the course of the season, and his theory is that if you rush Will Smith 100% of the time, or let Gamble purely cover 100% of the time, no one will ever beat them.

"I read somewhere that Gamble gave up more TD's than any other CB in the Big 10."

I can't imagine that this is true. Off the top of my head I'd say that Fox gave up way more TDs this year than Gamble, and that's not even taking into account the 10 other teams.

"I don't see him getting drafted in the first round when he has such limited experience compared to other "proven" college CB's"

Here's why he will get drafted in the Top 15: just because another CB had a longer college career (which always isn't the case, but I digress) and (maybe) a better 2003, doesn't mean squat to an NFL team. An NFL team wants to draft a player who will be Pro-Bowl caliber at his position immediately, or a year down the road. Forget about next season: Is there a CB in this Draft that'll be better than Gamble in '05? I don't think so.
 
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I agree it is hard to compare Doss and Gamble, and almost pointed that out in my first response to you, now I wish I would have because I should have been talking about Ross. Anyhoo, your reasoning for why Gamble will be a top 15 pick--"An NFL team wants to draft a player who will be Pro-Bowl caliber at his position immediately, or a year down the road." I do not see Gamble being a Pro Bowl CB in the next couple of years, he simply doesn't have enough experience. The thing that bothers me most is that Gamble seemed to keep making the same mistakes, as opposed to learning from them immediately. He will learn in the long run, and make an excellent CB, but I don't think he has the experience or knowledge to step in and start, let alone be a Pro Bowler, and that is why I say he slips to the second round.

On a side note, I don't have the stat's to back this up, but I am POSITIVE that Gamble gave up more TD's than Fox. I don't even think it's close. Gamble definitely gave up more big plays and long TD's, as Fox wasn't beaten deep even once this year.
 
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FKA: "I do not see Gamble being a Pro Bowl CB in the next couple of years, he simply doesn't have enough experience."

I disagree. Gamble is a special athlete. He's already shut down a ton of WRs who're big time NFL talents: Andre Johnson is the first that comes to mind. And, you really don't need a ton of experience to play CB, you primarily need the skills and technique to cover. I think you're severely underrating Gamble's tackling & other abilities besides coverage that he brings to the table. As D'Antonio said this past year: "You don't play in Ohio State's Defensive Backfield unless you can tackle. That's the most improtant thing." I didn't see him miss too many tackles.

"that is why I say he slips to the second round"

I don't know why you & Mili are still arguing this. In every mock draft: Kiper, etc., Gamble is projected as a Top 10 pick. Its almost a foregone conclusion that not only will he be a 1st Rounder, but a Top 15 pick at worst. Its almost like closing the barn door too late, you're arguing a point thats pretty much been decided. Its like arguing that the sun won't rise in the East tomorrow. Even if he falls out of the Top 10, Pittsburgh will gobble him up at 14 (or wherever they pick in that range).

"On a side note, I don't have the stat's to back this up, but I am POSITIVE that Gamble gave up more TD's than Fox."

There's no way. You're acting like he was burned every game. In reality, the only team that really threw at Gamble was scUM. Plus, Fox always played the slot reciever while Gamble took the deep man. It would be literally impossible for Foxie to give up more big plays unless he missed a lot of tackles.
 
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on where Gamble gets drafted. Regardless of what the talking heads say, I don't even see him as a first rounder, let along a top 10 or 15 pick.

As far as the rest of your post, I don't see how you can make the argument that Gamble covered the deep route most of the time--that is going to depend on which WR goes deep. It doesn't matter what WR lines up where, they can run any route they want. In fact, your argument contradicts itself--you say the only team that ever threw at Gamble was SCum, yet he was always the one defending the deep route? If they didn't want to throw at Gamble, why would they send his receiver deep?

Aside from that, I know that Gamble gave up at least two TD's to NC State, and I'm pretty sure he was burned at least once against Purdue also, and then there was the Wisky game. Throw in an under-achieving performance against SCum (along with the rest of the D), and I'd say Gamble had a pretty poor year. Again, and I can't reiterate this enough, I'm not trying to say the kid can't play. I think he can, and I think he will eventually be a great NFL corner, but I really don't think he has proven anything as far as college goes.
 
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FKA: "I don't see how you can make the argument that Gamble covered the deep route most of the time--that is going to depend on which WR goes deep."

You can tell at the LOS which reciever is lined up in the slot and which is lined up on the outside. Gamble would take the deep man, and Foxie covers the slot. Granted, just because they're lined up there doesn't mean that they run the predictable route, but 90% of the time they do.

"In fact, your argument contradicts itself--you say the only team that ever threw at Gamble was SCum, yet he was always the one defending the deep route?"

That's not contradicting myself - how many teams threw deep against OSU this year? Rivers had the best passing day of any QB, and none of his throws were deep balls, they were mostly short and intermediate routes.

"If they didn't want to throw at Gamble, why would they send his receiver deep?"

Even if you don't throw the ball to the deep man, you always must send a reciever in a long route to take two defenders (his CB and possibly a Safety) further away from the LOS and possibly out of the play. And besides, your question makes no sense - is a team just supposed to concede to a player & have their WR do nothing? You've got to put him in a route.

"Gamble gave up at least two TD's to NC State"

Didn't happen. You're thinking of another game, or mistaking him with another player. Rivers picked on Foxie and Mitchell most of that game. Go watch the tape.

"I really don't think he has proven anything as far as college goes"

Again, you're making a blanket statement: he was an All-American CB in 2002! First team!! In the entire country!! And he only played 5 games at DB full time! If you want to say that he had a bad year, that's fine, but the kid was a tremendous college player. He's proven quite a bit at the college level, again, I repeat: how many 2002 OSU Highlights included # 7? He had 4 games in which he singlehandedly turned the tide with INTs: Cincinnati, Penn State, Wisconsin, and Purdue - that's a career and a half for most DBs.
 
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I don't know why you & Mili are still arguing this. In every mock draft: Kiper, etc., Gamble is projected as a Top 10 pick. Its almost a foregone conclusion that not only will he be a 1st Rounder, but a Top 15 pick at worst. Its almost like closing the barn door too late, you're arguing a point thats pretty much been decided. Its like arguing that the sun won't rise in the East tomorrow.

I'm with Sloops on this one. I don't care how raw Gamble may be at corner, no way a player with his athleticism and size slides out of the 1st round. I'd be shocked.

I'm also willing to put my money where my mouth is, Mili. I still wanna do that bet. I'll pony up $50 against a copy of every game this year on DVD. I really can't think of anything else. If you can, let me know. It will make watching the draft a little more interesting if nothing else.
 
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Sloops: "I don't know why you & Mili are still arguing this. In every mock draft: Kiper, etc., Gamble is projected as a Top 10 pick. Its almost a foregone conclusion that not only will he be a 1st Rounder, but a Top 15 pick at worst. Its almost like closing the barn door too late, you're arguing a point thats pretty much been decided. Its like arguing that the sun won't rise in the East tomorrow."

and

"he was an All-American CB in 2002! First team!! In the entire country!!"

I don't think he was anyone's first-team AA in 2002, although he was first team All Big Ten in 2002. As for him being a top-15 pick at worst, if we don't already have a bet going on this (hey, I'm old so I forget shit), I'll bet you DVDs of every single game this season against any souvenir I want from a Buckeye game (if you can make it to one). I still say he's not a first-rounder, but no way is he a top-15 pick. How's that, partner?
 
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Sloopy45 said:
Didn't happen. You're thinking of another game, or mistaking him with another player. Rivers picked on Foxie and Mitchell most of that game. Go watch the tape.

I don't have the tape Sloopy, but I think it was Gamble that had 2 TD's thrown against him in the NCState game. Or to be more precise Gamble AND Fox (or Mitchell). Hard to really place blame on one person or another. It really looked like a communications problem. Both TDs happened from around the 5 yard line and both were crossing (or pick) plays. The two DBs (pretty sure Gamble was one of them on both these plays) looked to be unsure if they would trade off on the receivers as they crossed or if they would stay with "their" man. Both went for easy TDs due to blown coverage (two DBs on one receiver). As I said, communications error more so than lack of coverage skill.
 
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Gamble was a 3rd team AA (AP) in 2002. So many groups pick All Americans any more that it's hard to determine where Gamble might have been on some lists.

AP All Americans 2002

1st Team
Mike Doss (DB) Ohio State
Terence Newman (DB) Kansas State
Troy Polamalu (DB) Southern California
Shane Walton (DB) Notre Dame

2nd Team
Brandon Everage (DB) Oklahoma
Terrence Holt (DB) North Carolina State
Marlin Jackson (DB) Michigan
Marcus Trufant (DB) Washington State

3rd Team
Rod Babers (DB) Texas
Vontez Duff (DB) Notre Dame
Chris Gamble (DB) Ohio State
Jim Leonhard (DB) Wisconsin



Walter Camp 2002 All Americans (1 Team Only)

DB- Michael Doss Ohio St.
DB- Terrence Newman Kansas St.
DB- Troy Polamalu USC|
DB- Shane Walton Notre Dame
 
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Mili: "I don't think he was anyone's first-team AA in 2002, although he was first team All Big Ten in 2002."

I'm almost sure Gamble was First team AA in 2002. Anyone know a web site where we can look that up?

"if we don't already have a bet going on this"

We don't have a bet going on this. I'll reserve all bets with you until I know if I'm going to a game this year or not, because I'd need something to pony up on my end. The Alumni tickets people should be informing me which game I get this year, and I'll most likely win the scUM lottery again, so its a very good possibility that I will be going, I'm just not 100% sure yet.

3Yards: "I think it was Gamble that had 2 TD's thrown against him in the NCState game"

I don't remember seeing Gamble get beat in that game at all, and I certainly don't remember him getting beat for 2 TDs. Of course, I was watching the game in Vegas at the Caesar's Sportsbook with an all-night drinking, gambling, stripper/hooker fest, and 45 minutes sleep to my name at the time, so I could be mistaken - but I don't think so. But, if the TDs happened the way you said they did, I don't think FKA can make a statement like, "Gamble got beat on 2 TDs," because to say so would be incorrect.
 
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I'm almost positive Gamble gave up two TD's, and the reason it bothered me at the time (and now) is because it was the SAME PLAY each time, which reiterates my earlier statement of Gamble not learning from his mistakes. That was a high-scoring affair, and I'm almost inclined to say Gamble gave up 3 that game, but I can't remember how any other TD's (excluding one rushing TD) were given up.

Additionally, I don't agree with your assessment how WR's typically run their routes. This is going to change depending on formation, number of WR's, etc., and the slot receiver can go deep any time. I'll agree the wide guy goes deep more often, but no way is it 90% of the time.

As for the "deep threat" argument, I still don't follow you. I don't know as that any team could say they were successful throwing deep against us this last year, but SCum did it (beating Gamble), and almost all of them at least took a shot. I remember Fox defending several of them, and at least one spectacular play he made, ripping the ball out of the receivers hand at the point of first contact. Call me crazy, and disagree all you like, but I do not see Gamble going top 15. I'll be more than happy to place wagers to that effect, and I will be here to eat crow if I'm wrong (which I won't be...).
 
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FKA: "Obviously the coaches agree with me."

I never said he didn't have a sub-par 2003. That's putting words in my mouth.

"I'm almost positive Gamble gave up two TD's"

Again, read 3Yards' post. You're talking about coverage mistakes in the secondary and blaming one player. That's incorrect. Plus, weren't Cotchery's two TDs in regulation on slant and seam routes? That's not Gamble's part of the field or responsibility. I think I'm gonna need a certain Big Kahuna to burn me a DVD of the game so I can review this more closely.

"I can't remember how any other TD's (excluding one rushing TD) were given up."

Here's the breakdown: Cotchery, 2 TDs (11 yards and 9 yards), and T.J. Williams (5 yards) in regulation, and Tramain Hall (17 yard catch) in OT. McClendon ran in the other score.

As for the rest of it, I don't care anymore. Lets agree to disagree. Next thread!!
 
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Sloopy45 said:
As for the rest of it, I don't care anymore. Lets agree to disagree. Next thread!!
I'll drink to that!

And, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. It seems like you have been arguing his 2002 season, while I have been arguing his 2003. We're probably not quite as far apart in our opinions as it seems, but we definitely don't agree. Cheers!
 
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